Schiit Bifrost 2

Discussion in 'Digital: DACs, USB converters, decrapifiers' started by RobS, Aug 28, 2019.

  1. Ice-man

    Ice-man Friend

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    Okay, exFAT with 32 clusters is not the same thing as Fat32. exFAT which most windows 10 users will see when bringing up formatting options will not do the trick. Not for me at least. I used windows powershell to get the card formatted correctly, but you can also use this app found here:

    http://www.ridgecrop.demon.co.uk/index.htm?guiformat.htm

    Just click on the large picture at the top and the download will start. There are other fat32 format utilities out there as well. Once I got the card formatted correctly, and inserted correctly (not that easy), and flipped the BF back the update worked correctly.

    I know this because the sequence the lights followed was waaay different than the first time I tried this. I'm certain. And now the waiting game begins to see if this DAC is rock solid. :D
     
  2. atomicbob

    atomicbob dScope Yoda

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    My bifrost-2 has been mostly powered on 24/7 with a few power cycles. However I use Dante at 88K to spdif for data transport and the only time I had Unison USB running was at the Seattle Can Meet where I had access to a Win10 configured laptop. I have yet to replicate the alias issue or produce any result other than expected functionality, which delivers a very high sound quality to my ears. Hypothesis: it may take switching sample rates on USB input to stimulate. Once the problem has been stimulated then it doesn't matter which input is used, the problem remains until power cycled and re-stimulated via USB. This is my hypothesis.
     
  3. Magnetostatic_Tubephile

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    I was actually wondering why Schiit goes seemingly overboard on this one, sending physical cards to everyone instead of just providing the update online... now I know why. You probably cant be too paranoid/careful in this biz.
     
  4. schiit

    schiit SchiitHead

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    We sent cards because this is, in Apple parlance, a "maintenance update," AKA, "fixing bugs we missed." You know, like 13.0.1 and 13.1 and 13.1.1. Except the Bifrost 2 isn't streaming your every word to Tim Cook's toilet...er, I mean, it's not connected persistently to a wireless network, so it's best form for us to actually send a card out.

    You shouldn't have to crawl through the internet, find a card, format it, etc due to our deficiencies. I know it's tough for some people to accept, but there are TONS of people out there with no MicroSD cards handy, no way to format them, hell, no MicroSD cards at all or even a place to insert them. I'm one of them, I literally have NO place to use a MicroSD card without an external USB-C device (MacBook Pro) or an external USB device (Surface Pro 6).

    So. Yeah. Physical cards sent.
     
  5. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    You are basing your assessment on the -6db (each tone) 19+20kHz, which as resultant IMD of -75db at 1kHz can be said to be higher than average. However, there are two problems with your hypothesis:
    1. We haven't seen MM measurements for 19+20kHz IMD
    2. Even if we did, it wouldn't matter for classical music as the energy in the top octave is minimal, thus resulting in effectively no IMD.
    Here is a spectrum analysis of Mozart's Serenade No. 10 for Winds (I bet you didn't know SBAF has classical listeners too). Peak, Mean, and Average. Yup, nada for above 18kHz.

    upload_2019-10-2_10-23-18.png

    Again, already intimated this in @atomicbob's measurement thread: Use science properly. In this case, don't cherry-pick data. Asbergers can work both ways. Yes, I'm slightly autistic too. Always have been, we just never called it autism back then.

    Stick with subjective impressions unless errors are gross. That's what I do myself.
     
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2019
  6. schiit

    schiit SchiitHead

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    My use case is opposite. I'm using primarily USB (switching between two computers, plugging and unplugging every evening), and some optical out of a TV. Plenty of power cycles. No issues. Well, not until I brought the Sony remote in the room to check out a report of remote incompatibility and got an immediate triple flash (Bifrost 2 would interact with some other remotes, that's one of the things we fixed.) That's why I'll be updating my firmware tonight.

    I'll post a link to the video of what the lightshow looks like when it's up on YouTube. A hint to successful firmware install: the normal lightshow takes about 15 seconds. The firmware update lightshow is almost 60 seconds.
     
  7. Ksaurav402

    Ksaurav402 Friend

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    As a developer myself its totally understandable how some bugs creeped in initial production batch even after extensive beta testing. God, I face it everyday. But what makes a company great is how pro-active it is in fixing the issue and making sure that end users never feel neglected and are in loop with updates.
    As long as a company has good customer service I will never feel afraid in doing business with them.
    Sorry from digress but just wanted to show my support for Schiit for their timely reply to us.
     
  8. Ash1412

    Ash1412 Friend

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    Thanks. I do own a couple microSD cards and have an adapter handy but would've had to copy the data (tens of gigs worth), reformat them, do the update and then reformat and move the data back without these cards going out. Now I can keep this one handy for any future updates.
     
  9. AudioNut

    AudioNut Acquaintance

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    What's your problem with personal insults? "Asbergers"? "Autistic"? I won't even dignify that. If I remember right, last time around when we were discussing digital filters you started insinuating I was a homosexual. Name calling doesn't make you sound intelligent; it makes you sound ridiculous.
     
  10. Lyander

    Lyander Official SBAF Equitable Empathizer

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    I personally have to hold back a Dislike everytime purr1n or Psalm or someone else starts talking that way because it genuinely makes me want to kick a wall, but it's an online forum and people are free to express themselves however they wish... within reason. I ended up sticking around here because, casual bullshit like that aside, most of the people are genuinely nice and give a bother. Besides that, hanging around helps me learn how not to fly off the handle every time someone acts like a butthead, never mind the fact that one of my dearest friends is an aspie.

    Also it's an audio forum and that's what brings us all together here. On that note, this is all off-topic and I'd be curious how you'd have responded to the technical aspects of the discussion above had Marv not gone full buttburgers.

    Incidentally another reason I nearly disliked your post just now @purr1n is because "Asbergers" honestly made me visualise someone pooping out brown burger patties and I did NOT need that mental image.
     
  11. allegro

    allegro Friend

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    Good on Schiit to send the microSD card with firmware update out. I do have an SD port on my laptop but would have to get a card and adaptor off Amazon to do the update myself if I had a Bifrost 2. Heck, I have never even had reason to format a microSD card before. Not a big deal but great customer service from Schiit. @AudioNut some friendly advice relax, take a break. Just FYI getting in an argument with staff here usually does not end well.
     
  12. schiit

    schiit SchiitHead

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    Here's the lightshow that happens when the Bifrost 2 is updating its firmware—if it doesn't do this, it's not updating.



    So, again:

    1. FAT32 formatting and 32kb cluster/allocation size are critical.
    2. Best to use a blank card, or wait for the one we sent.
    3. The lightshow is totally different when programming, and takes much longer (55 seconds vs 15).
    4. Once updated, Bifrost 2 cannot triple flash. If it's triple flashing, it's not updated.

    Fun fact: every Bifrost 2 is programmed like this at the factory. As in, we install a basic boot loader, then we use a MicroSD card to program it. So if your Bifrost 2 left this building, it's already been programmed with a MicroSD card. This allows us to ensure that the updating functionality works 100%.
     
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2019
  13. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    You should not dignify that so you should go away.

    Quite frankly, I think you are bad fit for SBAF. Maybe I'm not getting something, but it's your attitude and tone. I've already urged you several times to take caution in reading too much into measurements as to how they correlative to subjective impressions, especially without sufficient data - yet you continue to press your case about the "greyness". I also dislike your snide conversational style, e.g. making assumptions that @atomicbob would be incompetent in regards to taking measurements (when you did not realize this is what he does for a living) and implying that your high-fluting tastes in classical or jazz would somehow make you more authoritative (as if other SBAF members do not listen to classic or jazz - newsflash: you are not special). And finally, in regards to measurements, I just don't think you know WTF you are talking about (missing little details like dBU scale, or if not seeing that, knowing when something just seems off and asking). I mean, it seems that you are knowledgeable enough to know some things, but pose yourself as more knowledgeable than you really are. You don't come off as an inquisitive or curious, which are crucial qualities for sciency types if you want to hang here.

    I'd argue that your actions are more disrespectful than mine because my use of the word Asbergers was an attempt to illustrate your continued tunnel vision, missing the trees for the forest, obsession with 19+20kHz, taking things way too literally, and also because I actually had what would be considered Asbergers when I was a child - which has taken half a lifetime of skills development to overcome. Maybe you missed that last self-deprecating part.

    I will call out disrespect when I see it. It's not only name-calling that makes behavior disrespectful. This isn't HF where only overt things are called on. We read between the lines.

    P.S. I may have called you ghey. The ghey spelling is intentionally used to avoid any association with homosexuality (gay). My kids call stuff ghey all the time. I think it's lame that we have to do stuff like this today, but that's because I'm getting older and crankier.
     
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2019
  14. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    Did you even read the context of how I used "Asbergers"? Or did you just buy into @AudioNut's skillfully parsed narrative? Context is everything.
     
  15. crenca

    crenca Friend

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    Like @Lyander I would like to see some response to this. If I understood his argument, he was claiming to hear IMD, the assumption was it is being caused by the (assumed) fact that the Bitfrost 2 implements a non-brick wall filter that is 'too slow' so to speak. Apparently this IMD comes across as "greyness"....if I am following all this correctly.
     
  16. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    Some additional context here in the measurements thread regarding "greyness" and IMD: https://www.superbestaudiofriends.o...st-2-technical-measurements.8356/#post-273685

    Subjectively, the "greyness" was always part of the Gungnir and Yggdrasil lines and their use of the JFET output stage. This despite superior IMD measurements of Gungnir and Yggdrasil.

    I've always known Schiit to implement steep filters. That's just @baldr's philosophy, love it or leave it. It isn't any different with Bifrost 2 - download the PDF measurement document provided by @atomicbob.
     
  17. crenca

    crenca Friend

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    I think I see it now on the pdf - corner frequency @ 20khz dropping like a brick by 22khz. Not sure what his argument is then...

    edit: looking again at this:

    https://www.superbestaudiofriends.org/index.php?threads/schiit-bifrost-2.8226/page-20#post-273857

    I got his assertions around IMD & aliasing sideways in my head...
     
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2019
  18. Lyander

    Lyander Official SBAF Equitable Empathizer

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    Don't worry, I'm not entirely off my rocker yet. Was playing off @AudioNut's post in my own way because I figured their blood was near boiling and they needed a bit of levity.

    The crankiness is understandable, it's part and parcel of the ageing process :p

    Edit 3: I misunderstood @crenca's post and clarified something that needed no such thing. Redacting, haha.
     
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2019
  19. haywood

    haywood Friend

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    For future updates you might want to think about releasing the firmware as an iso in addition to, or instead of a file that needs to be placed on a properly formatted, etc. card. Point users towards Etcher (https://www.balena.io/etcher/) which is drag & drop, and that will remove one more failure point. From what I understand you just create & image a small partition and that’ll keep the resulting file size small. Linux and macOS can create an image from the terminal with dd iirc, for Windows I think you need a third party program.
     
  20. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    Don't get me wrong, I love it when measurements say something or even might tell us something. However, I also equally hate it when people shoot at random directions, and an apple happens to fall because a bullet grazed the stem. The latter isn't science. It's idiocy.
     

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