Yggdrasil Refined - New Schiit Yggdrasil Analog 2 (Yggdrasil A2) Sound Impressions

Discussion in 'Digital: DACs, USB converters, decrapifiers' started by drgumbybrain, Jan 16, 2018.

  1. earnmyturns

    earnmyturns Smartest friend

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    Thanks. Additional suggestion: for security reasons my work system is totally out the network (neither wired nor wifi). However, if you can network yours, you can use any other device on your network to control moOde over its Web interface.
     
  2. toddrhodes

    toddrhodes Friend

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    Back when I had Yggdrasil A2, I recall two distinct jumps in performance (didn't have a Pi2AES at the time, but I did have a MicroRendu via USB for a few hours*)

    Biggest jump up in dynamics and actually getting a bit more of a "live" feeling from it was when I ditched the SE outputs and got a 1:1 balanced transformer to go from balanced outs of Yggdrasil to my SE-only preamp.

    Then I went from a DH Labs SilverSonic BNC cable from my (then) Jay's CD transport to a custom built AES/EBU cable I made. I don't think it was the cable per se, but I do think that input is just better on Yggdrasil.

    I did try the MicroRendu as a Roon Endpoint, feeding USB into the Gen5 input and I was completely unimpressed. Can't recall exactly what I hated about it, but I believe it just felt like I was listening to warmed over shit. It was uninvolving and uninspiring, to say the least. I assumed it was USB at fault, not the MicroRendu however, that's the only interface it has. So I sold it the next day.

    Now I have a Convert 2 and have no intention to change it out. Using it with another disc transport with AES/EBU as well, as well as a Pi2AES and also an AES/EBU, since Convert 2 has two of those for inputs. I listen to a lot of rock, metal, and some jazz. I have no real complaints around imaging or stage depth with CV 2 but even if I did, the immediacy and dynamics of it would forgive any other shortcomings, for what I want anyway. And I can't say that I ever got the same connection to the music through Yggdrasil 2A that I feel through Convert 2. But, Yggdrasil does change its character, depending on a few variables, at least from what I experienced.
     
  3. RobS

    RobS RobS? More like RobDiarrhea.

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    Ok my failing transport wanted to work for once tonight. Hooked up via coax spdif.

    Ran thru a bunch of rock/big beat albums. I just don't like how it handles rock. Guitars are like submerged under a thin murky liquid goop. Where are the searing, explosive fireworks. Hendrix sounds dull. Eddie Hazel ain't pouring out his soul like he does on Maggot Brain or Free Your Mind. Iggy's Raw Power mix is tamed. Even glossy clean Vig Nevermind production almost comes off as too polite. The second track on Superunknown that drum kit should smash my head in like a SWAT battering ram, rather sounds like cue sticks being whacked against a billiard felt table. Guitars don't shine forth. They're veiled and soft. There's not enough ambient spacing so lots of stuff becomes a congested muddy mess.

    Big beat stuff from Chemical Brothers, Prodigy and dumb shit like Fatboy Slim don't sound as massive either. They are alright, would like some more higher octane energy especially those first two Chemical Bros albums that have manic and frantic explosions, like the feeling of snorting coke. like todd says above, it lacks immediacy. I just can't get as involved on my favorite album of all time: Sign O The Times by Prince. The original WB CD pressing is shit (unlike Purple Rain. Avoid that new remaster). Have a Japanese remaster copy. It's narrowing but missing the sense of a wide open ambience on more intimate stuff like The Cross. Or the staging is too foward which messes up the synths. Where is the building tension on the track "It"? This is what I mean when things are flattened out. There's no escalation. This album has so much going on from electrofunk to slow jams to rock to dance to pure pop to channeling James Brown, Curtis Mayfield, Marvin Gaye, Al Green and so many other black artists. It's brilliant from top to bottom. Every track is a slam dunk. Great concert movie too. But here it just all smooths over everything to sounding all so samey and boring. And it all sounds recorded as in a shoebox. Blah. Gungnir was a little more wider than this.

    At least Thriller and Off the Wall are actually pretty good and listenable. Quincy's overworked perfectionist productions work well as its more jazz influenced and has natural instruments. There's more subtle gradations of both volume and tone. It is one thing I like about the Yggdrasil in how much of this little detail is dug deep and thrown at you. I'm thinking electronic music or synths or music made from a computer just don't work as much with Yggdrasil. Fleetwood Mac is good, bass is a little more bloated than I'd like. Bleeds into the lower mids. I like how it does vocals quite a bit, in fact this is the one area I find the most three dimensional. You get more of an impression of how close the singer is to the mic and modulated inflections. Even if the timbre doesn't sound quite as organic or "natrual" lifelike. It is different than I am used to but its a dense richness to vocals that are pleasing to my ears. I love piano and strings on this DAC. Even on the pop albums its the one area where I am wowed, it sounds spot on. I am sorta obsessed with how pianos sound.

    Still going to give it the 3 weeks or whatever to be fully warmed up then do some more critical listening. Need to get around some rap/hip hop but I don't think it's going to make that much of a difference. It does some things right and others wrong but I just can't get passed the muddiness or congestion or its tendency to dull off the higher energy transients. Lines are slower. Not enough engagement for me.
     
  4. Mindbender

    Mindbender Acquaintance

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    @RobS - Is any of your testing performed using USB, AES or BNC? Because the Yggdrasil.A2 results that you are reporting aren't what I'm hearing through my headphone setup. Not even close.

    The results that you describe ("bloated" and "slower") don't match to what I'm hearing in my setup - and I've played the same tracks above in Qobuz via USB (Gen 5).

    Disclaimer: I have never heard the Dangerous Convert-2 before, so I can't comment on how it compares to anything. I'd love to audition it because I listen to a LOT of rock/metal/jazz/house music.

    Now having said that:

    - My Yggdrasil A2 needed more than two weeks of warmup to sound lively. I unplugged it when I went on vacation and it was dull and lazy when I plugged it back in. This is not unusual behavior - I knew this would happen based on posts from this site. After 2-3 weeks, the sound improved to what I had prior to my vacation.

    - Are you using optical to the Yggdrasil.A2? Please don't. If anyone uses optical and doesn't get preferable results, then it should be expected.

    - In your above post, you mention that your transport is "failing." For a lot of the posts that report odd results, the "weak link in the chain" analogy still rings true. Doesn't matter if the suspect object in the chain works great with other equipment. This will ruin your results and should be identified/removed to ensure a better test.

    - Reading your recent posts, I understand that you love the Convert-2. I get it, but it seems that you have convinced yourself that nothing else will compare to the Convert-2 (which is also fine). This isn't a critique towards you, but I'm wondering if your observations are being more critical towards anything that isn't the Convert-2 (e.g. the Yggdrasil.A2).

    I deleted a number of other questions that I felt could assist with the troubleshooting because they were more setup-oriented (and would probably invite flaming from others). But the results you are hearing don't match up with what I hear.

    Maybe it's my older ears or my fatigue after-work, but I enjoy the sound that the Yggdrasil.A2 puts out. I hope your setup eventually improves as mine did. I wish you the best of results!
     
  5. RobS

    RobS RobS? More like RobDiarrhea.

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    Coaxial spdif output from CDP. By failing I mean it has trouble reading CDs. On the rare occasions it'll work fine. It's old and I'm sure laser mechanism or whatever needs to be replaced. I have a cheaper CD player also but it is complete garbage. USB is better than that crap. I truly would love to get away from all physical media for convenience.

    Yeah I did initially use Gen 5 USB direct from a Wyrd connected to my desktop PC. It was a little strident, hashy but I assumed it was the Yggdrasil needing to warm up. Cause after the first hour when it was turned on sounded like hot garbage for days. Worse when I had it hooked up single ended to my Valhalla 2.

    I was trying to get a more resolving nuanced better staging Convert-2. I thought Yggdrasil was going to be it, take a little of what I liked about the Gungnir add more bolder, more harder hitting, more explosive, more in your face, more detailed etc. Would be a killer match with the HD650 on paper at least. Convert-2 is always in high gear, doesn't let up but I desired more subtlety as this kind of dynamic presentation leans towards sounding more one-note. But nobody is designing DACs to my exact specifications so I have to evaluate what trade-offs I can live with. But the Yggdrasil (and Gungnir after some time with it) reinforced how much of a mistake I made selling the Convert-2. f'ing Mjolnir 2, if that amp wasn't such a fatigue machine it would have never happened. Oh well. Lesson learned.

    I'm just more critical of it when it comes to the speakers I have. I like the Yggdrasil with HD650/Valhalla 2 in that it's fatigue free which is what I want. I'm so sick of bright sounding shit. I can't tolerate it for long listening sessions. I want something I can listen to forever. It just a little ridiculous having it hooked up to such a modest headphone setup. Should look at getting a Jensen Isomax to use single ended from Convert-2. I dunno how much of a pain it is to switch daily from speakers to headphones. And no, not interested in a Bifrost 2. I have no other interests in DACs. Not buying anymore headphone stuff either.
     
  6. Buddha1979

    Buddha1979 New

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    Good to know it is in the manual. I know how to solder.

    Also good to know. Exactly what I do not like. I will not consider the X-SPDIF 2 then.
     
  7. SSL

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    Differentiating piano make doesn't require much resolution, though. Just wondering what has been going on up to this point if everything has sounded like "just a piano". Or if it's changed that much, exactly what about the presentation makes it easier to differentiate (not just "it resolves more").

    On the flip side, 650 isn't even that great of a piano headphone. Too warm and woolly in the low end. It makes 9-foot concert grands sound like parlor instruments. Maybe this is something the Yggdrasil helps with, but your description is too vague to tell.
     
  8. RobS

    RobS RobS? More like RobDiarrhea.

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    I just mean it's a lot easier to distinguish the kind of pianos being played and the particularities of each. Same goes for string instruments. It's richer in tones which allows for greater variation within the same group of instruments. Unlike other DACs where its more unvaried, flatter, and you don't have a greater sense of the nuances that go into the techniques of how these instruments are being played. Or the fluidity for that matter. With Convert-2 you lose the reverberations, vibrations, the detail after notes are struck, how fast they are hit, etc. which is where the Yggdrasil shines. So all of the delicate tiniest of information form the overall sound of the instrument and how it's played. In contrast I think this makes the Convert-2 have a more pristine, cleaner and simpler presentation that works better in other genres. The kind of lower information the Yggdrasil resolves and pushes more into the foreground works against it in say rock music as it tends to muddy and congest the sound. Ideally I would want the resolution of the Yggdrasil but with the open, expansive soundstage, transients, uncongested dynamics of the Convert-2. But Yggdrasil only doing one thing right while the Convert-2 does a lot more things right, is where I have a much better preference for the latter DAC. It's also more in line with the music I listen to.
     
  9. Buddha1979

    Buddha1979 New

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    I have not read all your posts but have you tried different inputs on the Convert 2 ? It has 5 differnt types of inputs and maybe the resulting sound of one of them suits you better than the others? It has been reported with Yggdrasil that all inputs sound a bit differnt from each other. SPDIF coax sounds better to me than Gen 5 USB and I am going to try AES for the first time tomorrow. You could use soundcards or digital->digital converters, not sure what your sources are. Just an idea.
     
  10. RobS

    RobS RobS? More like RobDiarrhea.

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    Only inputs I've tried on the C2 are optical and USB. Yggdrasil coaxial spdif and USB. I don't have a source that can do AES out, as folks here say it's the superior input than everything else. So an AES source is in the cards for both DACs, but it'll be awhile as that's low priority. Replacing speakers first.
     
  11. Psalmanazar

    Psalmanazar Most improved member; A+

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    JBL 305 mkii are very true speakers. They’re certainly the best actives you can buy for under 1k a pair with regards to accuracy. Yes they are boxy but revealing. The HS8 is less revealing of punch, warmth, and treble issues. The KRK has a shitty resonant port and the Kevlar tweeter is a bit blurred over and warm.

    Dangerous converters rob lower level detail and sterilizes the sound a bit compared to my MOTU gear and the Apogee gear I sometimes use but they’re still along the best, clearer than MOTU, not dialed in warmth and softness. It’s less warm than either and Apogee is way more colored. It’s just their house sound and probably has to do with the punch and dulling of air. It’s much more neutral than Yggdrasil. Yggdrasil a2 adds shit tons of mud.

    none of this is perfectly neutral but only Yggdrasil and other hifi brands are trying to be euphonic. Yggdrasil pretty much is opaque and hides stuff in the path. Does it’s own thing to the reverb. It’s a sound goodizer if you like the sound but I think the sound went 10 steps back in the a2. It got MUDDY.

    usb sucks. Only Fgpa usb is consistently good. Only motu and rme have worked for me consistently over usb without dropouts or weird shit happening. Only rme usb is Retard proof on unoptimized computers. I would not be surprised at any third party driver sucking syphilitic chancre cock. The Schiit cmedia ones are definitely weirder than thesyscon xmos.
     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2020
  12. RobS

    RobS RobS? More like RobDiarrhea.

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    I truly dislike how Yggdrasil universalizes the sound of so many diverse albums in my library with these greyish overtones. It just don't sound right. It's not tonally accurate. It's hazy. C2 is much closer to the recording but still exhibits its own house sound but in a much more transparent way than Yggdrasil. It's like the Yggdrasil draws more attention to itself than a true transperant window into the recording. C2 can verge on this but its more neutral and less colored. Like Yggdrasil has some kind of thinly opaque gray filter overlayed. The muddiness is bad on some pop albums. Soundstage still sounds like a band plays in a small shoebox. Maybe USB Gen 5 completely gimps the Yggdrasil. Gungnir A1 is more of this but further washed out. This hooked up via Eitr.

    ^ this on my 305s. HD650s staging I can't perceive depth well on them, it goes right behind my eyeballs in a direct line between my ears. The tubes surprisingly do open up the width, but this was true of other DACs. I think the Gungnir with headphones was maybe a notch wider. There's still a clear boundary on both sides but harder to notice compared to the staging on speakers. And you are always positioned up front. Still has a tendency to get congested and muddy, but I think HD650 doesn't help here as its not as clean and clear as my HE-6s were. Yggdrasil/Valhalla 2/HD650 is a beast at extracting details though.
     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2020
  13. Riotvan

    Riotvan Snoofer in the Woofer

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    Yeah i'm hesitant to upgrade my A1, i like where the sound is. I don't want more warmth and smoothness/mud, certainly not with my Questeds it's spot on as far as i'm concerned. Maybe for my Clears but the headphone rig is low prio and is used 95% for movies and shows.
     
  14. SSL

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    Yeah, you said that.

    Trying to reconcile all of this with the idea that the DAC makes recordings unvaried via "grayish overtones".
     
  15. elmoe

    elmoe Friend

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    low level detail VS overall presentation. I think its pretty clear from his posts.
     
  16. Scott Kramer

    Scott Kramer Friend

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    Thanks @SSL -- I have to tap out also. At times @RobS's discovering what the Yggdrasil can do. The next describing a cold Yggdrasil gen2_USB SE out. Cool though, I run a 2nd Dac that's different enough... confused by the descriptions a bit, it's hard to describe sound.
     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2020
  17. RobS

    RobS RobS? More like RobDiarrhea.

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    The lower tones have more color to them, but the fundamental notes are grayish to me. It gives a presentation that sounds duller. But there's more shades of grey if that makes sense. Or take something like a Modi 3 where its just all one color.
     
  18. elmoe

    elmoe Friend

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    It's like you insulted the wives :D
     
  19. Psalmanazar

    Psalmanazar Most improved member; A+

    Pyrate Slaytanic Cliff Clavin
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    I mean that’s pretty much all dacs. The color/tint. Schiit is opaque fire orangey red. NOS Dacs are a red brick wall. Chifi is a black plastic container of General Tso chicken. It barely resembles chicken, it’s deep fried to oblivion, and you can’t see through it. You don’t even get to eat out of the oyster pails. Dangerous is Terminator vision. Apogee is a warm, incandescent, flashlight that occasionally makes everything the color of yellow mustard. Motu is a samurai movie sunset duel on the beach. Prism is a flame thrower smoking out a bunker full of Germans in broad daylight. RME is Kmart fluorescent lighting that always makes Charlize Theron look like Aileen Wournos.
     
  20. RobS

    RobS RobS? More like RobDiarrhea.

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    LOL Terminator vision. I say Predator vision bro.
     

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