Nearfields for audiophile listening?

Discussion in 'Speakers' started by sashafuckinggrey, Feb 27, 2016.

  1. Vivicector

    Vivicector New

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    Hey, why computer metal? Its still played by hands, you know... As well, they will still be playing folk, black, power, prog, avant-garde and stuff.

    Anyway, I am kinda ok with the totally-digital nature of JBL concept, but... The JBL costs twice as much as I can afford. I am also not interested in listening music too loud, so their amplifiers would be a bit lost for me.
     
  2. wormcycle

    wormcycle Friend

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    Today my KRK Rokit 10-3 G4. First impressions from unpacking, basic setup, including some EQ, and 2 hours of listening:
    The setup: Roon Endpoint on RPi 3, Digi+ Pro -> RME ADI-2 DAC - KRK.
    Unpacking: they are gigantic, cannot put it any other way, the KRK recommended positioning is useless, anyone who is seating less than 9 feet from those is crazy.
    My biggest fear was the famous KRK hiss so I quickly turned them on and...nothing. I put my ear next to the twitter and the slight hiss is lower than from LSR305, which again I can only detect with me ear next to the twitter.
    After lowering the monitor volume to half, and increasing the ref level of RME to +7, the monitors were quiet.
    Maybe I am just lucky or ma maybe all those complains on Gearlutz were overblown.

    I set everything flat, no EQ on the monitors or the DAC, and I did not like the first few tracks: lots of details but treble were a bit into my face, I could not separate instruments in a string quartet, low registers of a cello were boomy and unnatural.
    I left them to play loud for about an hour. A bit of work on the toe-in fixed the sound stage and instrument separation. Then, using the KRK EQ I set both monitors with low shelf at 60Hz. -3dB. It had larger effect than I thought.
    Now the sound of a cello and a piano is deep and natural , and that''s my first and the most important step in the decision do they stay or do they go.
    I am listening to a very amusing album, half Piazzola, half baroque music and very deep, clear sound is filling the living room.
    [​IMG]

    More work needs to be done, I think they can improve, but so far no regrets.
     
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2020
  3. FeddyLost

    FeddyLost New

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    I meant that it's just physical restrictions for anything including commercial music which is already done. If they measure 5" at basket, their driver is 4" in best case or less. So, excursion for any significant SPL at lows must be huge and distortion rises.
    It's not a problem of Geithain, it's a problem of any 5" two-way. Geithain just clearly warns us about this.
     
  4. wormcycle

    wormcycle Friend

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    Update on the KRK Rokit 10-3 G4 and not a good one.
    I appreciate how quickly and efficiently https://www.musiciansfriend.com/ handled the return.
    It started well, I really liked the timbre and bass extension of 10-3 but over time, and changing the music genres, it became pretty clear that what I was hearing at the bottom of the dynamic range was hiss and distortion instead of music.
    It was getting more pronounced when switching from for example J.J Cale (yes, this uncultured Eastern European just "discovered" J.J.Cale) to Beethoven violin sonatas. I exhausted all the reference level options of RME ADI-2 DAC , the monitors input sensitivity levels, nothing was helping and was getting worse over time.
    And I did not really expect superb clarity at this price and was prepared to seat pretty far from the monitors, but eventually 10-12 feet away I could hear the hiss even with my 69 years old ears.
    And I really regret returning 10-3 G4 because, once I got the EQ on RME ADI-2 DAC right, at least to my ears, I spend many hours listening with pleasure.
    With minimal EQ the bass extension is great and those 10 inch woofers are really fast, bass control is superb.
    The 250H to 1kHz area required +2db to bring the vocals forward, and bring more details. It was not bad at all.
    IF it was not for the hiss and distortion coming mostly from the midrange driver those could be really good for the price.
     
  5. Thad E Ginathom

    Thad E Ginathom Friend

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    Don't feel bad about that! This uncultured Northern-European-turned-Indian-immigrant only recently discovered The Pet Shop Boys. :oops:

    And even with JJ Cale, I was stuck at just one album for several decades until I discovered the rest. Be happy: you've stumbled into a goldmine.
     
  6. Psalmanazar

    Psalmanazar Most improved member; A+

    Pyrate Slaytanic Cliff Clavin
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    That's not distortion, that's just hiss from the plate amp because you're not listening loud enough. LISTEN LOUDER Those are warm midfields meant to be listened to at a 80-90 db average with room for over 20 db of transients! The purpose is so that the Listening to classical music softly is sure as hell not what they are for. They are for uncompressed transients for the people playing music and the clients who want to hear the mix in it's full glory who are standing far behind the console. That's the point of midfields and mains monitors. KRKs are some of the cheapest monitors with high headroom. A normal hi-fi speaker would just break.

    The hiss is just not a big deal on almost any powered monitor. The only people who complain are those not listening at monitoring levels. You bought a cheap midfield that's meant to get super loud and not break up. If you're not listening at 85 db average at you're listening position, there's no reason for you to own that.

    The "bottom of the dynamic range" of any recording already has dithering or tape noise on it. It can't be masked.
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2020
  7. Thad E Ginathom

    Thad E Ginathom Friend

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    A very interesting point. OK, so I never actually bought the active monitors that I visualised wishfully on my desk for the past decade or two, but... If I ever do, I must make sure sure to ask what sounds good playing low.

    The first thing I always do in any gear demo is turn the volume down.

    Anyway, probably won't happen now. But if I wasn't still a tiny bit wishful, I wouldn't even be reading this thread :)
     
  8. bilboda

    bilboda Florida boomer

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    Jbl 305's sound terrific playing low, particularly after adding a forward firing and ported KRK 8S sub that I can touch with my feet from my listening position, boominess is gone, clarity raised up loads. Oh, I don't create music, just listen.
     
  9. Psalmanazar

    Psalmanazar Most improved member; A+

    Pyrate Slaytanic Cliff Clavin
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    They sound good low because they have a scooped midrange and are unresponsive around the crossover point. At higher volumes, they fall apart anyway and get harsh in the low mids due to the cabinet resonances and the in the treble due to the colored, undamped waveguide. The mkII tweeter thermally distorts a lot less. I don't even think the original has ferrofluid.

    The mkII is a decent mixing monitor but misses a ton of issues in the low mids. You'll definitely need to use another speaker or a headphone to glue the vocals and any sort of soaring lead guitars into the mix. If you just use the 305, it will sound recessed but that's just the speaker. Computer modeled waveguides to lower the crossover point of bad tweeters leads to unresponsive crossover regions as teh woofer is breaking up and crossing over to a piece of plastic.

    Other slightly scooped like the Dynaudio BM6a or Proac 100 / SM100 eat them for breakfast at 70db ish. Flatter midrange is always better to mix on imo though.
     
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2020
  10. bilboda

    bilboda Florida boomer

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    Better speakers are on the horizon, likely not monitors though, probably omega 3i. will keep the sub though.
     
  11. FeddyLost

    FeddyLost New

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    It depends on some details about good and low.
    How low and what is good? 50 db of 75? Good is detailed or bent according to Fletcher-Munson?
    If we are talking about nearfields, most probably something small (with light woofer and high crossover) will be OK and required ear sens curve can be done by equalizer until speakers are overloaded...
    Most of 3-ways with detailed midrange blends properly little further than nearfield.
    But if we think about 3-way nearfields like ATC 25 or Neumann 310 it could also work well...

    I think it will be required. 4,5" with 94,5 Db sensitivity and 55 Hz is kind of miracle... I'd better wait for 100@ -3 Db ...
     
  12. wormcycle

    wormcycle Friend

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    After my not very happy time with KRK Rokit 10-3 G4 I started thinking about Mackie hr824mk2as a replacement.
    Twice as expensive as KRK but seem to be better build with AB class amps. At least those I will be able to audition, after 14 days of self isolation of course, when I get back to Toronto.
     
  13. saint.panda

    saint.panda Friend

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    Because of the home office situation, I have been comparing two nearfield setups: Adam A7X (active) vs. Harbeth P3ESR + Schiit Aegir, both fed from a Sonnet Morpheus via Macbook USB. I'll probably return the Aegir and Harbeth. Isoascoustics stands. No room treament whatsoever in the corner of living room (see picture), so probably terrible acoustics but at least the same conditions for both.

    Harbeth P3ESR
    On selected tracks they sound incredibly lifelike. Great for tracks that aren't too busy, for acoustic instruments like guitars, and for male voices (great for all the video calls I'm having). Good match for jazz trios, singer songwriter material, etc. Nice midrange glow. But also flat out boring on some pop, electronic, or classical tracks that need some energy.

    + Strong Imaging, speakers disappear nicely, so with vocals (if not much else is going on) there's a convincing illusion that it's real
    + Decently liquid midrange
    + Good microdetails
    - Slow and weak attack. Always feels like something is holding the speakers back.
    - Not neutral, mid-centric, sounds a bit rolled on top and no bass extension whatsoever
    - Upper-/Mid-bass hump

    Adam A7X
    Sounds less refind and more analytical, but bigger and more fun.

    + macrodetails
    + attack
    + flatter, better bass extension
    - Dry, analytical-sounding despite the NOS DAC
    - Microdetails. Lacks some of that refinement of the Harbeth. Maybe the AMT tweeters need more burn-in, who knows. Just feels a bit too much like a TV where the sharpness was turned up

    Overall I thought the Harbeth/Aegir setup wasn't good value considering it's 2.5x the price of the Adam speakers. The Harbeth are spectacular for 10% of the music I listen to but they're too expensive to be a role player. Maybe the Aegir doesn't have enough power for the P3ESR, but if it was good enough for a Stereophile review, it should be good enough for this comparison, especially in a nearfield situation where I don't have to crank them up.

    Last but not least, I was expecting both to blow my two Sonos Ones + subwoofer out of the water, but except for bad imaging and no microdetails, the Sonos are quite fun and no slouch (especially with the subwoofer added).

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2020
  14. AdvanTech

    AdvanTech Friend

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    I just checked the sensitivity of the Harbeth's. 83.5dB/1W/1m! You know what was holding the speakers back? The obscenely low wattage they were being fed. I don't think it's a fair fight to compare these speakers when the P3SER's aren't given a fighting chance.
     
  15. saint.panda

    saint.panda Friend

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    Possible but I like to think that if this pairing was good enough for a glowing Stereophile review in which multiple speakers were tested with the Aegir, it should at least be good enough for a comparison of this nature.
     
  16. AdvanTech

    AdvanTech Friend

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    You're trying to pull a boat with an oversized pickup truck that has a tiny engine, and you're disappointed that it's sluggish. Just because that engine got glowing reviews in a Civic and Yaris doesn't mean it will work in your situation. Attack and grip on drivers wouldn't be an issue if you were using something like a Vidar (or nearly anything with more wattage). Just try it.
     
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2020
  17. saint.panda

    saint.panda Friend

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    The review specifically mentioned the Aegir/P3ESR pairing "The Harbeth P3ESR's least good trait is how compressed it can sound on bass-charged, highly dynamic programs. To my surprise, Schiit's Aegir alleviated that shortcoming (at least somewhat) by demonstrating a vigorous class-D-like force, delivering strong momentum, clean bass detail, and articulate, open highs. (...) Harbeth's P3ESR loudspeakers, driven by the Nelson Pass-designed class-A, zero-feedback First Watt SIT-3 amplifier ($4000), have a special talent for making voices feel like they come from genuine humans (with moist vocal cords). This combo is my current reference for authentic fidelity. But folks, at exactly one-fifth the SIT-3's price, the Schiit Aegir gave me a majority-portion, perhaps as much as 80%, of the SIT-3's detail-rich humanity. What is the argument against that?"

    But I'll see if I can find a cheap powerful amp around. The Vidar is out of stock in Europe.
     
  18. famish99

    famish99 Friend

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    I honestly don't think your opinion of it will change too much. AdvanTech is right, you're definitely underpowering the thing for how large your room is, but more power will definitely make it sound more dynamic, but it's not going to be as dynamic as the Adam just because of the sheer size difference.
     
  19. Psalmanazar

    Psalmanazar Most improved member; A+

    Pyrate Slaytanic Cliff Clavin
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    The A7X is a much better speaker than the Harbeths. The only problem is it isn’t flat and the AMT is sterile/sharp. Soft domes are the only way.

    The Harbeths are resonant crap. They resonate where male voices are. Meaning that they’re inaccurate for those and sound like shit for everything else.

    Proac Studio 100 (SM 100 updated version now) are basically Harbeths that don’t suck but for the price, all this shit is a joke compared to ATC.
     
  20. AdvanTech

    AdvanTech Friend

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    Proac's for enjoying music? You're nuts. Not everyone needs to monitor mixes, you know. Especially on SBAF. I can't stand the SM100's tweeter for more than 15 minutes at a time, though I understand it's purpose in the studio.
     

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