Motu UltraLite mk4 Review

Discussion in 'Digital: DACs, USB converters, decrapifiers' started by purr1n, Jun 14, 2020.

  1. Serious

    Serious Inquisitive Frequency Response Plot

    Pyrate BWC MZR
    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2015
    Likes Received:
    2,594
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    near Munich, Germany
    @The Life there are likely cheaper, better options as an ADC for vinyl rips. Ultralite mk4 has a CS5368, while my M4 has an AKM AK5554VN. As such I'd expect the M2 to have an AKM AK5552VN.
    Schiit Jil (older AKM AK5385) may be an option aswell, used it should be quite inexpensive.

    @purr1n The entry level AT2020/AT2035 mics are just electret mics, no? I think there are cheaper and better options here aswell. A friend of mine got the t.bone SC440 USB and I think it's quite good. Best used slightly off-axis so it's not as peaky. The non-USB SC400 may be good. I'm sure there are other good options aswell.

    Since you mention impedance measurements specifically, is the SE input impedance the same 1MOhm as on the M2/M4? I know the PCIe sound card I was using before limited the measurements a bit with its 2kOhm input impedance, but aside from those edge cases it wasn't any different really.

    Also considering how much you seemingly like it, I think it should sound better when used as a DAC compared to the M4 I have. Would be interesting to compare.
     
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2020
  2. mrflibble

    mrflibble Friend

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2016
    Likes Received:
    358
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    Does this work in Linux at all? I would not expect all the functionality to be available.

    There is a review on Amazon of the AVB variant and it appears that the Sabre version is not USB compliant due a change in the bios.

    Thanks.
     
  3. Hrodulf

    Hrodulf Prohibited from acting as an MOT until year 2050

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2015
    Likes Received:
    4,276
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Sadly, there are no FIR-capable >4-channel DSP platforms with digital outputs. At least not for sane money. MiniDSP nanoSHARC showed much promise, but was discontinued. MiniSHARC is similar, but you have to provide your own digital I/O to interface with i2s.
     
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2020
  4. philipmorgan

    philipmorgan Member of the month

    Pyrate BWC
    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2015
    Likes Received:
    3,790
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    In the wind, so to speak
    Home Page:
    I’ve had a MOTU m4 for a while and can offer a few notes that might help folks who are considering buying one instead of the Ultralite mk4.

    The m4 doesn’t have all the routing coolness of the higher-end MOTU desktop interfaces. But for simple stuff, it’s totally adequate. By simple stuff, I mean:

    - Listening to music out of your pooter
    - Recording a podcast or podcast interview where you might or might not want to monitor your own voice (m4 can easily do both)
    - Video calls with external headphones and mic
    - Integrating external hardware preamp


    I’ve used the m4 on both a Mac and Windows computer. It’s more stable on the Mac (has never crashed for me there), but has crashed a few times on the Windows computer. Dunno if that’s the drivers or my Windows computer being old or what. Recovering from a crash with the m4 means powering it off and back on and then telling Windows drivers to use the m4 again.

    I just did a quick comparison of the m4 as DAC vs. the Modi Multibit v2 + Eitr as DAC (Magni 3 as amp). If you don’t want to get sucked into amazeballs sound (if you’re trying to actually get work done while listening I think this is ideal), the m4 is totally fine as a DAC. Detailed and dynamic sounding vs. the Modi Multibit. Somewhat brighter and clearer sounding than the Modi Multibit.

    I wasn’t impressed with the headphone outpout of the m4 when I tried it a while back HD650s, and I haven’t tried the m4’s headphone output with my Elex, so no comment there.

    The mic preamp on the m4 is surprisingly capable for a bus-powered device. I have a Daking Mic-Pre One and an EV RE-16 and have done some comparisons on my own voice. The m4 pre has that all-band warmth that @purr1n talks about whereas the Daking pre is less warm (but still not cold or dry). The RE-16 needs a ton of gain, and the m4 does not fall apart or sound bad at high gain. The m4 can get by without a Cloudlifer. By comparison, the DBX286s has bad noticeable bucket-brigade-of-opamps midrange distortion at high gain. The Daking, of course, doesn’t break a sweat at 60 or 70dB of gain. If you’re wanting to do something like use a SM7b or RE20 on Zoom calls, the m4 will be totally fine. Nobody will notice or care whether you’re using the m4’s mic preamp or a mic preamp from Abbey Road that Sir George Martin farted on. If you’re recording a podcast, the differences between the m4’s mic preamp and an external badass preamp might matter a little bit. Depends on how much nervosa you want to engage in. If you’re doing actual Important Music Production Stuff, then probably just spend a few more hunned on the higher-end non-bus-powered stuff, right?

    The m4 does not impart this all-band warmth to the line inputs. This is why I went with the m4 instead of the m2. The m2 lacks the true line inputs the m4 has. When I say line inputs, I mean line inputs that *don’t* go through the front-panel mic preamps. I haven’t examined the circuit or anything, but judging based on the sound the m4 seems to do what a lot of desktop audio interfaces do, which is pad down the line input jack on the front panel combination XLR jack and then pipe it through the mic preamp, which means your line input gets attentuated, re-amplified, and colored by the mic preamp. This person (https://panther.kapsi.fi/posts/2020-02-02_motu_m4) says the mic preamps on the m4 are THAT Corp preamp-on-a-chip preamps, but the spec sheet they’re linking to is for a chip with 34dB of gain, so if that’s correct I’m not sure how the m4 manages 60dB of preamp gain. Anyway, the rear-panel line inputs on the m4 seem to be true line inputs that don’t get piped through the mic preamps, so if you're using an external hardware preamp, that’s a reason to favor the m4 over the m2.

    I didn’t mean to turn this into an off-topic thing on the m4, but folks are asking about it here, and i’ve actually used it, so I though I’d contribute. To be clear, I haven’t used the Ultralite mk4, so I can’t compare the m4 to that device, but I have compared the m4 to some other stuff (DBX 286s, for example), and I hope that’s useful to some folks.
     
  5. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

    Staff Member Pyrate BWC
    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2015
    Likes Received:
    89,771
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Padre Island CC TX
    M2 and M4 use a lower line ESS chip. Even then, the opamps could be different, although I'm inclined to think they may be the same ones. Not even sure how much M2/4 and UltraLite share common architectures. It's not unheard of that different project groups will work on different products even in a single line with the bigger companies. The UltraLite is likely quite different internally with the firmware, Web UI, sample rate converter and mixer.

    M2/M4 are cheap. Maybe a loaner would be warranted?
     
  6. TheIceman93

    TheIceman93 El pato-zorro

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2016
    Likes Received:
    1,300
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    SoCal
    Thank you @purr1n for the super comprehensive review. I'm pretty interested in this thing. I'm stuck on the waitlist for a Bifrost 2. I'm curious how the DAC section of the MOTU stacks up.
     
  7. JayNYC

    JayNYC Friend

    Pyrate Contributor
    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2016
    Likes Received:
    39
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    Miami Beach, FL
    @mrflibble In late December I asked MOTU support the following question

    "Will either the Ultralite4 or 8A run on a Linux system?"


    to which they responded to me just 1 day later (great support)

    "While the UltraLite-mk4 and 8A are not officially supported on Linux systems, they will both work as simple I/O devices in class-compliant mode on Linux."

     
  8. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

    Staff Member Pyrate BWC
    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2015
    Likes Received:
    89,771
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Padre Island CC TX
    Different AD chips but similar specs with the major difference being 2-4-8 channels of AD. Other aspects may be different such as opamps and power. The M2/M4 are USB bus powered which can be iffy for an multi-function interface and is often the result of USB weirdness. The UltraLite mk4 uses a cheap external switcher - this itself could be a differentiator as I found the Modius DAC to sound better with external power vs. USB bus power.

    The SC440 (non-USB) looks like a steal, even with shipping to USA, it's still a bargain. From one YT video comparing to others, may even sound better than the AT2035, but hard to say with just vocals and quick switching. I would just hope it's not made in the same factory as Behringer or the tolerances are within the published spec. When something seems too good to be true, it often is.

    I know Craig's got some tube microphone preamps around and I bet they are killer, so kind of curious. A Neumann TL102/103 is something I that could keep forever that extremely nice but isn't overkill.
     
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2020
  9. Serious

    Serious Inquisitive Frequency Response Plot

    Pyrate BWC MZR
    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2015
    Likes Received:
    2,594
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    near Munich, Germany
    I think they both use the ES9016S. At least in the picture I took of my M4 I can see a ES9016S.
    Well, the CS5368 is also specified as 114dB SNR, same as the CS4272 the Focusrite Scarlett interfaces use. The 115dB SNR of the AKM AK5554VN may not be much better, but I definitely preferred the M4 to the 2i2Gen3 for vinyl rips. Maybe the CS5368 sounds much better than the older CS4272. There are almost 9 years of R&D between those two.

    Maybe different opamps. The specs are different. The UL mk4 also accepts much hotter signals on the inputs. I had to get line attenuators for my M4. I'll do a more thorough comparison when used as a DAC tomorrow. Might need some warm up, too. I find SABRE DACs tend to benefit from leaving them on more than other D/S DACs.

    t.bone SC400 may be more noisy than other mics, on par with the smaller Audio-Technica electrets.
    Neumann TLM102/TLM103 may have too much of a treble elevation. At a certain point it's probably more a matter of taste and preference. Either way I'm sure there are much more knowledgeable people on here.
     
  10. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

    Staff Member Pyrate BWC
    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2015
    Likes Received:
    89,771
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Padre Island CC TX
    Yeah probably different opamps or power supply. Motu says 120db dynamic range "on outputs" for M2/M4 and 123db for the ULmk4. Funny you mentioned warm-up since I asked @ChaChaRealSmooth if his XSP needed a little bit of warm-up.

    FR is more of a secondary consideration because this is easily corrected. Liveliness, ability to capture nuances, and transient response for the application are much more important. Heck, throw in color too. The cheaper microphones tend to be dead, duller, and much less interesting sounding beyond what FR may indicate. The thing about microphones, especially the large condensers is that you can't go Audio Science Review on them. Throw away left brain and use right brain. I mean if Amir started measuring microphones' frequency response and grading them like that, he would be laughed at.

    The sc400 needs phantom power right? It's not a cheapy electret.
     
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2020
  11. Psalmanazar

    Psalmanazar Most improved member; A+

    Pyrate Slaytanic Cliff Clavin
    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2015
    Likes Received:
    5,345
    Trophy Points:
    113
    M2 and M4 use Xmos usb vs an FGPA in the real AVBs. That alone can heavily change the sound and probably for the worse. The full rack ones use better power supplies (much better than RME) but have more stuff crammed into them and the DA measures a little worse than the Ultralites but it shouldn’t really matter. The danger from these heavily internally filtered bad power supplies is stuff breaking. MOTU has a great out of warranty repair policy if they have parts. RME and Apogee don’t. Add butthole caps (like many RME and Focusrite products) and you get a recipe for disaster should anything go wrong ime. There is a lot of other gear that doesn’t do an adequate job of internal filtering and sounds horrible with the stock power supply. Worse than any Focusrite or Schiit product.
     
  12. Armaegis

    Armaegis Friend

    Pyrate BWC
    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2015
    Likes Received:
    7,462
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Winnipeg
    I have an AT2020 that sits in the kit and never gets used. Almost universally we'll grab an SM58 instead. I don't actively dislike it, but the Shures just seem overall easier to use.[/USER]
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 15, 2020
  13. Serious

    Serious Inquisitive Frequency Response Plot

    Pyrate BWC MZR
    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2015
    Likes Received:
    2,594
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    near Munich, Germany
    @purr1n Regarding mics I agree and otherwise nobody would make tube mics I think. I'd love to see a comprehensive comparison to properly distinguish what the capsule does and what the electronics do. Well, there are a few YouTubers out there with videos comparing many different mics and you can hear some differences which do not seem to be explainable by FR. I still think a lot of it is taste. For example in the 'Booth Junkie' vid comparing the LCT 550 or LCT 540S to the TLM103, I prefer the Lewitt mics, but I can see others preferring the Neumann. Well, maybe a bad example since you'd need a higher quality audio than YT to really compare them. Works better for cheaper, entry level mics.
    SC400 is a "proper" condenser, yeah. But I think its treble spike would be very hard to EQ out. Seems some people replace the capsule, although I wonder if it's not worth it to spring for something more expensive in the first place in that case. Other people like to DIY mics.
    I feel electret mics have a sound to them that I dislike and from the videos I've seen the Audio Technicas aren't really an exception. Could possibly just get a Primo EM200 and it wouldn't be too different. Maybe it's because I spent way too much time with my omni electret measurement microphones.

    Anyway, feel free to ignore my opinion, I'm just a noob when it comes to mics and I think it shows. Gonna shut up now.
     
  14. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

    Staff Member Pyrate BWC
    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2015
    Likes Received:
    89,771
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Padre Island CC TX
    LOL, you gotta stop worrying about that stuff with microphones. Use right brain, throw left brain away.
     
  15. TheIceman93

    TheIceman93 El pato-zorro

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2016
    Likes Received:
    1,300
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    SoCal
    Does it have an ESS 9016 like the MK4?
     
  16. MrTeaRex

    MrTeaRex His head's not fat, he's my brother!

    Anti-SBAF PSYOPS Banned
    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2017
    Likes Received:
    908
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    Houston, Texas
    I believe so. Supposedly the differences are in the ADC, power supply, and connectivity.
     
  17. Psalmanazar

    Psalmanazar Most improved member; A+

    Pyrate Slaytanic Cliff Clavin
    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2015
    Likes Received:
    5,345
    Trophy Points:
    113
    @Serious chances are your room sucks, all condensers will sound like shit in it, and you should just buy an SM7B and a high gain pre.
     
  18. Serious

    Serious Inquisitive Frequency Response Plot

    Pyrate BWC MZR
    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2015
    Likes Received:
    2,594
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    near Munich, Germany
    My comment was mainly based on the sound in this video, not the specified FR (which could be BS anyway). Sibilants sound pretty harsh in my opinion. I haven't tried, but I think that harshness is hard to EQ away. Of course you can use de-essing plugins or whatever, but I don't think it fixes the underlying issue.
    I think it's interesting how the large electret AT3035 compares here.

    However I think specs matter a lot for noise. Unless it is single-digit dBA noise it is likely audible for voice-over recordings. Noise seems to be maybe 5-7dB better than the NW700 in his quick comparison, which should mean around 17-20dBA-ish. (NW700 is also much noisier than specified. Similarly noisy as a 6mm WM-61A. The capsule is rated at 24dBA, which is also close to what I measured.) The noise however seems to be over 10dB lower in the 1-2kHz region.
    Note the other mics which are supposedly the same as the SC400 are rated at 20dBA noise, not 7dBA like the SC400.

    @Psalmanazar good point, the room and how you set up the mic and yourself inside the room matters a lot.

    EDIT: Not adding another reply as I already feel bad for derailing the thread. Maybe someone can move the posts (starting with part of Marv's post on page 1) to a new thread. @philipmorgan Marv mentioned his use case on page 1. Any advice for him?

    I have to admit I shouldn't have written so much about microphones considering how much real-word usage experience I have with them (very little when excluding measurements). It's something that interests me from a technical standpoint and as such my approach to it is inherently more left-brained than for those who use microphones mainly for recording. Between viewing a microphone as an instrument and as an analyzer my view veers closer towards the analyzer side.
    Don't mistake that as me saying that I don't care about the sound, but I wanted to try to clarify my obsession for low noise and smooth frequency response.
     
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2020
  19. philipmorgan

    philipmorgan Member of the month

    Pyrate BWC
    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2015
    Likes Received:
    3,790
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    In the wind, so to speak
    Home Page:
    Proposed forum rule: nobody is allowed to discuss microphones without saying WHAT YOU ARE GOING TO USE THE MICROPHONE FOR AND HOW YOU ARE GOING TO SET IT UP. Mics aren't headphones; they aren't wideband reproduction devices that create their own little isolated acoustic environment around your ears. They're specific purpose tools that interact with the environment.

    Podcasting rant here: I hate seeing folks who are new new to microphones think that because studios use large diaphragm condenser mics they can set up a Blue Yeti in their echo-ey, street-noise-ey house and get good sound.

    /rant

    But seriously people, don't talk about mics without also talking about your use case. A "treble spike" could make certain instruments sound sparkley and nice and voice sound terrible. Context matters.
     
  20. limesoft

    limesoft Friend

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2016
    Likes Received:
    489
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Location:
    London
    The description of MK4 ultralite cohesive warmth sounds similar to what I experience with Apogee Element 24 (same dac chips I believe).. The Element has this enveloping warmth throughout eventhough I would say it lacks some bass oomph - best analogy I can think of is it's like listening to a very neutral set of speakers in a very well treated/damped studio with heavy curtains - because of the lack of reflections and no noise pollution, it has a calming quality to it throughout. Apogee advertises that it does additional digital signal cleanup/reclocking before it hits the dac, maybe MK4 UL does as well resulting in this clean warmish sound.

    I wish someone on SBAF gets a chance to hear the Element - it's headphone out is quite unique and i'm finding it difficult describing it as it's a combination of clean/slightly lean but warm at the same time. At times it can sound a bit overdamped with the HD650s, but overall it's an interesting combination
     

Share This Page