SBAF Spring Cleaning

Discussion in 'How to Win Friends and Influence People' started by MrTeaRex, Jun 15, 2020.

  1. LetMeBeFrank

    LetMeBeFrank Won't tell anyone my name is actually Francis

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    When you see someone who is executed and you're wondering why, search for their last few posts to see what they did or said to get banned. It's pretty simple to see why it happened 99% of the time.
     
  2. Jinxy245

    Jinxy245 Vegan Puss

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    Some of the executed members likely had more going on than just what you read...across other threads and whatnot. IME it often builds over time. Like @LetMeBeFrank said there is usually a trail. @rlow is spot on, golden rule: don't be a dick. If you have an opinion, be reasonable and don't go full on fucktard attack mode if someone challenges it (even if they sound kinda mean when they do). Not all that difficult for many people here...do try to have some fun.
     
  3. Azimuth

    Azimuth FKA rtaylor76, Friend

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    As someone who has been banned more than once, it is kind of humiliating and can seem being excluded. You feel very powerless and the tendency to get ganged up on as the group think takes over. It was difficult to not take things personal due to my childhood history and wearing my feelings on my sleeve that leads to a thin skin.

    However, looking back, I clearly see how I got there. The banning that is. I talked more than listened. I attacked. I acted out. I now lurk more than post and only chime in when I feel like I have something to actually contribute. I try to be helpful when I can. I sit and learn.

    And we all have our preferences, there is just so little time for insults, cruelty, and intolerance. And any superiority is juat going to hit a brick wall. Not everyone has to see things completely your way. I have tried to find my inner Dude and let things be.

    Love you guys
     
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2020
  4. RedFuneral

    RedFuneral Facebook Friend

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    Been doing a bit of a mental back & forth on if I should post or not, I'm feeling enough community spirit that I'd feel guilty not to.
    Careful with Discord. The company is run by people who believe in real life consequences for speech they dislike. I know how close-knit communities tend to venture into all topics and I've seen the consequences of having sensitive discussions on that platform. I don't know how much is appropriate to detail so just be smart with it. It's not a safe place to let the edge/toxicity fly.

    @purr1n Long ago I attempted to start an internet forum. It collapsed within a month because I set the wrong expectations with the community regarding growth. The core membership wanted it small & were literally having phone calls behind my back discussing how best to sabotage the site. I can't help but wonder if the move from Chang provoked that feeling of bait & switch and some associated resentment in some people.

    I'm too irregular here to pick a side or say whose right or wrong, but you have my sympathies(and my respect) from someone who couldn't make it work to someone who is making it work. It wasn't the behind my back badmouthing that hurt, but having old friends begin to see me as a tyrant who could only be dealt with through dirty dealings. Nothing sucks more than losing that lively debate with friends who begin to fear your virtual authority.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 16, 2020
  5. schiit

    schiit SchiitHead

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    Replying late, because life.

    Here's the thing: I didn't even notice the controversy until one of the mods mentioned it casually. Then I took a look and yeah, in the moment, I wasn't too happy. Rina thought it was funny, but we always think it's funny when we're not the butt of the joke. So even now, I don't need to like it.

    That said, I suppose it was inevitable. Schiit is, after all, high profile. I am also known to be one of the founders, and I write blather every other week or so that has amassed 10+ million views. Pretty much everyone in audio knows who we are after 120 months of "flavor of the month." So I'm a target. Maybe even more so than other high-end personages. But most other well-known high-end guys don't make $99 products, so hey, maybe being a target is understandable.

    In any case, we'll keep doing what we're doing (fun, affordable products intended to broaden the range of high-end to new customers), and I'll keep responding here (when I have time, less these days than in years past), and some people will like us...and some people won't.
     
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2020
  6. dmckean44

    dmckean44 In a Sherwood S6040CP relationship

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    The worst part is high end audio can be so stodgy that another two decades will pass and you'll still have gobs of people that think of you as a flash in the pan.
     
  7. zerodeefex

    zerodeefex SBAF's Imelda Marcos

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    I have been thinking about how to approach this thread and I've selfishly decided to share my perspective here. I apologize for jumping around; I feel like there's a lot to say and I want to cover it all rather than give everyone some half-assed reply:
    1. First and foremost, this whole situation has genuinely caused @purr1n distress. Marv is like family and it genuinely breaks my heart to see how this has affected him. We're humans and I can tell you right now, this place is a passion project for Marv. There is no great wealth that comes with running the site. Any revenue barely covers loaner budget, site fees and subsidizing gear for mods who put in work (not myself or Marv). Am I a special snowflake for admitting we have feelings? Sure, but I would be remiss if I didn't acknowledge that we're human.

    2. It's cool to disagree with us, our ideology, our opinions, or the site in general. It's totally valid to accuse us of group think, of being partial to Schiit, or whatever complaints people want to levy against us. The world would suck if we all agreed about everything and we'd clearly be doing something wrong if no one had any complaints about the forum or any of us individually. Also, I think it's cool if people want to very bluntly call us ignorant, deaf or smooth-brained troglodytes on other forums, slack instances, discord servers, IRC channels, over the phone, via signal group messages, snail mail or whatever. Honestly, I will be the first to admit that I'm more often a dumbass than not.

      What isn't cool is taking advantage of the perks of being part of the community such as loaners, etc then talking shit somewhere else. What's even less cool is coming back and gaslighting Marv claiming you were just effing around and he should suck it up. That's just bad fellowship. We're better than that.

    3. We're not the same people, the same forum, or even the same community we used to be. Hell, the hobby is dramatically different today than it was even a few years ago. People change, grow and do different things. Of course SBAF isn't the same as Chang or even SBAF a few years ago. Hell, I hope SBAF isn't the same as we were in 2019.

      The world is dealing with a lot of shit right now and we're facing things as humans that we can barely wrap our heads around. I know I look back on choices I've made in the past and dislike the person I was. I haven't had enough empathy here and elsewhere in life and that is not okay. I regret not taking more time to put out more good juju into the world. However, I do hold that humans have an amazing capacity to grow and make the choice to be better and I know it's something I try to do. I also believe that meaningful growth only comes when we each define how we want to be improve rather than letting the opinions of others dictate how we want to grow.

      Does this mean that we have lost and will continue to lose elements of what made us special to different people at different stages of our journey? Hell yes. Do we still make mistakes? A crapload of them. But I can acknowledge these things while still being proud of the fact that we are trying to be better and I'm happy that more and more people can derive value from the shared knowledge and community here. I'm proud of all of you who choose to educate yourselves, experiment and thoughtfully share your insights and experiences here. That's pretty awesome.

    4. I guess this is more of a sub-point of #3, but the hobby has changed for the better and the breadth of gear you can get for cheap that's pretty good is astounding. The democratization of good audio has made the hobby accessible to a much wider range of people with experiences and perspectives that contribute to making our community awesome. Along with this, I suspect we've become a hell of a lot more forgiving than we used to be because more gear is, well, good.

      Marv likes to remind me of a nugget of wisdom he got from @Tyll Hertsens that with many, many thousands of people reading the site, he has influence and, with that influence, we should probably be more careful because it's easy to crap on a person or business with great potential before they've realized it. I'm certain that a lot of our previously energized members find this disappointing but it's something that I know we try to be more thoughtful of.
    Anyways, that was my rambly overshare. I hope you are all staying safe and well both mentally and physically.
     
  8. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    Something to keep in mind, SBAF is much smaller community than HF and many people who have been banned start new accounts, not one, but two, three, sometimes four.
     
  9. zerodeefex

    zerodeefex SBAF's Imelda Marcos

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    Also don't forget what happened to some folks - we weren't banned but our passwords and emails were changed, locking us out of our accounts.
     
  10. atomicbob

    atomicbob dScope Yoda

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    I don't pretend to fully understand what is happening right now, but I believe I am right in thinking that some bad shit is happening in our hangout. I'm going to avoid adding more than this short message to the foray, and hope better times are ahead. Time to listen to the Bachelor amp sent here by @ChaChaRealSmooth and drink strong beverages in self-medication. Be well everyone.

    (for those curious, yes measurements will commence this weekend on the Bachelor.)
     
  11. Cakecake

    Cakecake Guest

    Ok, sorry guys. Btw thanks for the tag I like it.

    I'm not actually psyops I just like the bright yellow.

    I'm like the new guy that strolls into a club cause I was told there was the good stuff and got raided by the FBI

    *looks like i lost my psyops tag :(
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 17, 2020
  12. m17xr2b

    m17xr2b Friend

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    They done goofed and if nothing else for the following reasons:
    1. Jason is a friend here that always shared his knowledge.
    2. You treat an MOT and supporter of this place with respect. I'd like to point out some users from time to time yet self control must be executed just because.
    3. Even at the risk of being battered with comments one should always criticise the gear in specific compensations with reasons according to preference. I doubt I'll buy Schiit gear again and I don't like the voicing of most of the amps and dacs yet it's a good time to hate the game and not the player.

    I think the affinity SBAF has towards Schiit combined with high praise that's subject to change whenever new gen releases is what feeds the trolls to behave in a blunt and brutal way in an attempt to balance the scales and set the world straight. Tempted of that myself from time to time with some companies but not here, that's what HF and youtube is for.
     
  13. Thad E Ginathom

    Thad E Ginathom Friend

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    What kind of idiot sees a thread called "Spring Cleaning" and passes it by because it has to be a for-sale thread? Yep: this me kind of idiot. Now, four pages in, what to do? For better or for worse, people have lived the content, changing or not changing accordingly. Jumping in with comment about what people said or did on page one or two would be ridiculous.

    I read through the thread feeling that it would not even be appropriate to sprinkle likes and dislikes. Not because I didn't, but because the people who were here (posting or not) could do that: I wasn't. Up to last hour or so.
    They are. For every arsehole that walks in the door, there are many, many decent people.

    Changstar. You and Marv and co know very well where arsehollery and dickheadedness leads, and it has been clear from the start that you guys were not going to let SBAF go that way. Every so often shit happens, and it needs to be cleared up. That work is no fun. I bow to those that do it and thank them for their work. And I'm sorry that sometimes it hurts.
     
  14. Hands

    Hands Overzealous Auto Flusher - Measurbator

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    Yeah, with the diagram you sent me! :p

    But you helped me get it sorted and learn new things in the process. Call me whatever you like so long as it's to my face. :)

    You were very clear to me in some private conversations, before SBAF was live, that it was going to be different than CS. Part evolution of CS, but also plenty of new (and unknown) elements. Things had to change so we could be a more positive influence overall to the hobby and enthusiasts as a whole. And I don't mean positive as in "everything is awesome," but a better, more digestible way to bring CS's selective, high-expectation-based approach to a much wider audience.

    Not to downplay growing pains from first year, or even to this day. Nonetheless, I figured the writing was on the wall from day one.
     
  15. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    I've noticed it's the 1%'ers of audio that seem to be most upset with SBAF and Schiit? I've always felt that SBAF was about finding good sound for price point X. Changstar was that too (actually it was more about identifying bad sounding gear).

    Let you tell you guys how it's like with the 1%'ers: if you think this is bad, it's even worse up there.

    The best most awesome of the 1%'ers are the quiet ones who curate components for the systems over time, through trial-and-error. They've developed their own vision of what they want, set forth to achieve that vision, and could less what others say or do, though they are always willing to share. We are talking about guys like Willy, Gaurav, Brent, etc.

    However, majority of the 1%'ers are a mess. It's a clash of egos because they've "dollar-average invested to zero" some very expensive gear and if someone preferred something else much less something cheaper, then they must go berserk! Did you just say my penis is small? I paid $6250 for that! It gets so vicious that even the high-end vendors go against each others' throats. This is stuff we normally don't see since maybe I get a few pieces of high-end (cost) stuff a year. Maybe one of three I'm impressed with. And that pisses the 1%'ers off.

    How dare Marv recommend a piece of gear that is high-value, but isn't True-High-End™
     
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2020
  16. k4rstar

    k4rstar Britney fan club president

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    just read WhatsBestForum for 10 minutes and you will understand the depravity of it all
     
  17. bazelio

    bazelio Friend

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    This is a great thread and thanks to Marv, J Mo, Zero, Hands, for pouring heart felt thoughts in to it. This is humbling and humanizing. I appreciate it. (Yeah I can get sappy; I'm a giant pussy deep down, but don't tell anyone). This day of reckoning, on both "sides" (if you will, and I don't like framing it that way), was long overdue. But better late than never.

    First. I clicked "like" on the toilet meme. I didn't know the meme was coming, nor did HMF if you guys care to know that, and it gave me a chuckle. I didn't know the Callia review was coming ahead of time either for that matter; I hadn't spoken to HMF in probably 6 months. None of it was pre-meditated by any sort of counter-SBAF splinter cell, but it made me chuckle in a dumb, immature, fart at the dinner table way. OK? Ain't gonna deny it. In a drive-by perusal of that thread, I clicked like and moved on. My frame of reference was also different, having been in the Discord channels since the big meet in, what, 2016? More on that later. Jason, for my part, I apologize. Your business is an American success story, I've read every update to Schiit Happens, and I only wish you continued success. At no point has that changed, and I stupidly and completely failed to consider how that looked to a wider audience as I was driving by.

    Discord. I'm not the ring leader by any means, but I'll be the messenger now. I echo J Mo's take on it, and I look at the shit talk like I look at a Comedy Central roast. To be roasted is to be loved. It's not malicious, there is no hatred, and a number of you have been roasted. You get roasted all the same whether or not you're there. We trash ourselves almost every day, too. Here's a taste. Don't shoot the messenger. EDIT: Actually, go ahead and shoot the messenger if you prefer. I can handle it.

    Hands - You unapologetic warmf@g. You've never heard a tone above 2 kHz that you've liked. Your contributions to the forum are voluminous, and your passion for the hobby is clear. So are your preferences, and that makes it easy to understand the character of gear in your reviews. The community owes you for all the time and effort you've donated.

    BillP - You love veil. You should wear wool socks over your ears. I've met you in person on a few occasions and you're one of the most pleasant hobbyists on this forum who always looks for positive attributes in people or gear, and almost always brings unique takes to the table. Truly one of the real nice guys. Keep it up with your modding expeditions; they're fun as hell to read about.

    Lyer25 - Holy shit. Don't move to Texas. And don't get offended. It's not my photo collage; I had to dig it up. And you gotta admit, it's kinda funny. Your curiosity here is second to none and your writing style always interesting. I think you've probably read every thread there is. You're good people. Don't go anywhere you goofy bastard.
    [​IMG]

    Ravi - You narcissistic son of a bitch. You're one smart mofo, and it wouldn't surprise me to find out you have a hyperactive 190 IQ. Your custom titles and thread split subjects are always hilarious, too. You're creative af. Your post above was the real deal, an awesome read, and so humanizing. Just totally admirable.

    Tea Rex - You sweaty, cousin f'ing, mullet having redneck piece of trailer trash. You have a secret gear hoarding disorder among many others. Buried deep down, and hard to find, there's a genuine person in there who would help anyone in a time of need. You mean no harm.

    Brencho - You motor boating, turca loving, eel fantasizing, impulsive and insatiable audio freak. You're the man; a true pal.

    K4 - f**k, man you know it all. What you don't know is I admire your passion, enjoy your wit, and am glad you're back. I never had any ill will towards you. You blindly regurgitate too much of what you've read in your gear reviews, because some of our reading material has intersected. For that, I've sent you a few dislikes, and then a few more for good measure in a 3rd grade frivolous smartass manner. Good to hear you're on the rise professionally. Come back to Discord any time, or don't, but if you do just bring your newly-tuned comb filter.

    Me - I voted for FDR, gutted it out during prohibition, etc. etc. Actually I think Marv and I are the same age. May have graduated high school in the same year. I forget now because ... old age. The difference though is that Marv has aged like wine, and I've aged like milk. Shit, I think we may have owned some of the same gear back in the day. I had Theil CS2.2s, etc.

    Etc., etc. Don't be sad if I missed you.

    Hopefully you get the idea. Hopefully you believe there's no conspiracy, no ill will, and shitloads of immaturity and stupidity to go around. IRL, I have two sets of friends - my dive bar pool league drinking taco bell eating buddies, and my professional steak house frequenting colleagues. I've had heated yelling matches in private conference rooms with the latter, and then met up for a good time with all forgotten later the same evening. To some lesser degrees, you guys are both. I'm running out of time and have to get to work. Long live SBAF.
     
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2020
  18. RobS

    RobS RobS? More like RobDiarrhea.

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    I don't think anything has been forgiven nor did I apologize in order to gain something or in an obsequious manner. I actually expected either silence in return or told to go f**k myself, either reaction would have been appropriate. Just cause I can post again don't mean I think everything is hunky dory or trust has been regained. Far from it. I apologized to purr1n cause it was the right thing to do. He doesn't need someone like me trying to undermine the integrity of this site having multiple accounts posting shit, which is where I think that "Anti-SBAF PSYOPS" tag originated from. I felt he was owed an explanation for my behavior and actions. Getting banned for awhile made me realize I took people for granted and desensitized their importance. The folks here do mean a lot to me, although I've done a shit job at showing it.

    Yep agreed. Schiit's populism is a threat to the elitist, exclusionary attitude of those kind of people. But I like that SBAF has never had sour grapes about higher priced gear compared to those on college budgets you see on Reddit/ASR. I'm sure there's better sounding gear for 5x-10x the price, but I'd rather sink that money in buying more CDs or other hobbies. I'd say most of us are at the point where our systems are complete. I'm more about encouraging people to get into 2-channel as quickly as they can. Unfortunately for me that means cycling through a fuckton of gear cuz I have no way to audition this shit and figuring out what I like. Trying to sift through reading internet impressions and talking to strangers has been harder than how well curated the headphone stuff is here on SBAF.
     
  19. Psalmanazar

    Psalmanazar Most improved member; A+

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    I suggested Prism to fluffy and he likes it. The thread was too inflammatory but the Jason flushing and shit went way overboard. the tonal balance of the desktop prism units might appeal to those who like some Schiit products like Yggdrasil 1 but who want a better, wider stereo image and somewhat cleaner treble in its own way.

    I have a respect for Schiit even if I think many of their recent products went downhill in Sonic cohesion and box tone, trying too hard to appease the masses. Their older stuff jsut seemed cohesive and they seem to be getting back to it from what I heard in the magni 3+ and modi self-titled edition. getting to experience a lot of the prosumer audio first hand told me that nothing they can can be as bad. Seeing what happens to the circuits when stuff gets cloned by Behringer or Chifi or shifted to China has taught me that low end Schiit is still better than hi end Chifi with the exception of some very boutique pieces.

    Unfortunately the internet noob audiophiles and prosumer idiots are deaf, lack the gear to hear what’s wrong with their other gear, and don’t listen to older music made prior to a lot of the shittier gear and diy attitude. They can’t hear a compressor that doesn’t distort correctly, box resonances in speakers, severe cup resonances in headphones (sorry Fostex and ZMF), or the boxiness of poor conversion. When you put modern pop and modern rock on a pair of detailed speakers, the vocals buzz with distortion and the heavy compression (not jsut gentle leveling and catching peaks anymore with an LA2A and 1176) and limiting fries the voice. the drums are entire fake and “kick” is often a sign wave and the actual kick or kick sample is reduced to a click. The gear industry is catering to this debased demographic and the awful billboard music. Even death and black metal areinfested with posers who don’t want them to be what they are. They want other music with some of the production aesthetics of the older music. Otherwise Greta Van Fleet wouldn’t exist. This has been the case for 20 years but is only getting worse. Remember f'ing Wolfmother? They don’t want to appreciate older music for what it is. Rather they want something as background easy listening music and want something to fit their mood or something like a movie score. They want music to fit their worldview. They don’t want to see movies that don’t. They want to tell you what to think. They need movies that tell you the f'ing plot because they’re bad movies. And not bad movies like Gladiator where any dunce can figure out it’s about Russel Crowe fighting tigers and going mano a mano with Joaquin Phoenix for the Roman Empire. I mean Christopher Nolan bad movies that think they’re smart and artsy and different and shit. He thinks he’s Tarkovsky but his movies are just bad. He couldn’t make a superhero movie with a coherent plot unlike Blade 1 and Iron Man 1. Michael Caine has to show up to explain the plot because the script sucks, the writing sucks, the characters don’t behave consistently to their character, etc. That’s modern indie music and dumbed down music too. They want to be smart and different and special. I see this with golden age hip hop too vs frickin trap. Well music isn’t a f'ing mood ring or an emotional support stuffed animal. Death metal certainly isn’t mood music with a soaring chorus to make you feel better about a video game. Deep Purple isn’t background for anime fighting games.

    so much of the internet gear talk are noobs or impulse buyers who want purchase validation. Random people on the internet are not your stuffed animals. Schiit and some other western brands of passive hifi speakes make some great affordable gear that’s not electrically compromised. Chifi is. On the pro side, you have stuff like MOTU, Drawmer, FMR, Speck, and some western clone makers to replace all the crap that sold out to China, cost reduced the circuitry, and tried to sell it for the same price or for slightly less without the fit and finish or money components (good caps, transistors power supplies, transformers). I hope this continues and the cheap Asian throwaway crap gets driven into the ground and derided.

    f**k SMSL, f**k Focusrite, Go Schiit and all do their experimentation. Go MOTU. Wear that unicorn horn proudly. Go Drawmer. Old live sound boxes that beat up the clone hardware for sonics with the newer rack mounts actually doing something new. Schiit on the Chinese project boxes that use old stock portable DVD player clickers that can’t change the 543 hidden settings only accessible with a 59 dollar programmable tv remote. Schiit on the shitty switchers injecting high frequency hash and current limiting even many expensive boxes.
     
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2020
  20. Lyander

    Lyander Official SBAF Equitable Empathizer

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    @bazelio
    I had one of my usual extremely tl;dr posts queued up for ages since the Callia thread thing before I decided to scrap it. I'm glad I did.

    While I feel this place is as good as an internet hangout can ever be and care a lot about the forum, this all goes back deeper than even my old occasional CS-lurking ass had any right to butt into especially knowing loads of you actually know one another outside this little corner of the web— as much as I try to be exactly the same person online as I am IRL (barring some very offensive jokes because... context etc.), that's hardly a proper substitute for the above especially considering I'm still learning a lot just by passively trawling. Acoustics, electronics, physics... bit beyond my scope.

    Modesty aside I think you're spot on with the curiosity thing, which is about the only thing I can contribute aside from occasional snippets about gear and weird crap :p

    @Enigmatic said it best in a shoutbox thing (and the fact that I'm citing this just highlights the fact that I have way too much free time especially after being in community quarantine for... three months plus OMG): I haven't met many of you, but I genuinely care about everyone here who engages with sincerity, even if less often lately; the people on this forum do way more than anyone gives em credit for. Trolls can go eat mouldy bread.

    Fun fact, with those glasses (same in old/current Pikachu avatar that I have been using for years cuz I like the coverage and comfort!) and my hair grown out I got called Jeffrey Dahmer a lot at my old job (unless that's not him and I'm blind). That may have contributed to my shaving head to combat summer heat recently, lol.
     
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2020

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