Considerations before going down the vinyl rabbit hole

Discussion in 'Vinyl Nutjob World: Turntable and Related Gear' started by purr1n, Jun 17, 2020.

  1. Azimuth

    Azimuth FKA rtaylor76, Friend

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    Most people I know that have an LP-60 have it not for the SQ, but because they love vinyl. Although there is much more fidelity in a used 80's player with a standard mount arm than the LP-60 for sure. Even the Teac units are good starter tables.

    Fall in love with the format. Fall in love with it again when you realize the fidelity with a little investment and TLC. Just know it is a rabbit hole and know your limits.

    Don't get me wrong, I cherish my vinyl collection and try to get rhe most out of it like everyone else. Heck, I just bought a used RCM just last month.

    And I am trying to say the fact that the vinyl recording and playback system works despite the imperfections is a credit to the brilliant engineers of the early 20th century. Sorry if anyone misunderstood. I tend to have a passive voice and write dreamy instead of just getting to the point.

    Enjoy it for what it is, that's all.
     
  2. RedFuneral

    RedFuneral Facebook Friend

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    And if it happens with someone's first turntable purchase it'll leave a sour taste in their mouth. It did for me. I purchased a table from a vintage audio expert who lived only an hour away with plenty of good feedback. That wasn't good enough.

    Your average sellers doesn't see a problem with leaving the platter unsecured to the table during transit. If you're lucky it'll stay on the spindle putting undue pressure on the bearing. If you're unlucky you have a >10lb freeweight playing pinball with your tonearm, cartridge, and dustcover. A table with a suspension system allows even more opportunity for damage.

    You need to have a pre-purchase discussion with eBay buyers. Have them confirm they will properly disassemble the table and secure the parts properly. It's on you to have read through a table's documentation so that you can walk a buyer through the process.
     
  3. DEATHxMACHINE

    DEATHxMACHINE Friend

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    That is the kind of good used purchasing habits that I hope most people with common sense would employ.
     
  4. yotacowboy

    yotacowboy McRibs Kind of Guy

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    I don't post up much about vinyl listening because don't bother listening to it very often. I guess I'm one of those that see $1k non-tweaker style setups as just parlor tricks. I started into vinyl with a TD-124 before they became outrageously expensive, and an AT ML440a cart. Then tried out an old Rega Planar 2, and P3, Grado and more AT carts. Then 2 mid-level Pro-Ject tables, and finally an SL-1200 and Denon cart. I used to fuss with it all the time, and most of my listening was on vinyl. Gungnir MB ended that. I briefly considered trying to track down a used VPI Classic, but grabbed a used YggyA2 instead. I think the last record I played was probably a year ago. And that was just to make sure a cheap SUT didn't sound like ass. I just don't see the value proposition of a mid-grade vinyl setup when BF2 exists. Maybe Sol, but I'd want to hear one properly setup before committing the time and cash. Nowadays vinyl elicits a big fat ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ from me.

    Edit: I totally lied. I forgot I drag out all my favorite Christmas music on vinyl, and it's a weekend thing to sit with my GF and listen to "Baby, it's Cold Outside" as we both kinda enjoy the fact that we can still listen to a song that's become nearly verboten (but also other not so rapey songs, Bing, Frankie, Sammy, Dean, Peanuts, etc.) during the season and drink Port City Tidings. So maybe that should say something: in my not really anything near-audiophile TT setup, it's more about the nostalgia and maintaining a tradition. Sure, it sounds good, but i'm not going all ORFAS on my TT setup.

    It's silly, but i wish A Very Murray Christmas soundtrack would get published on vinyl. It fits. "Santa Claus wants some lovin'!"
     
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2020
  5. Garuspik

    Garuspik Tovarisch Ukrainian Terminator MOT - Verum

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    I can't name myself a vinyl lover but I do have rather good turntable\cartridge\phonostage and ~200 lps. Do I believe that vinyl is superior to cd? Sure no. But in music that I love there're plenty of brilliant sounding lp's and awful cd's. Mastering of certain albums - that's why I have vinly in my home system.
     
  6. Tchoupitoulas

    Tchoupitoulas Friend

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    A couple of comments for those thinking about getting into vinyl as well as a query for those more knowledgeable than me:

    Beyond the issue of the sound quality of vinyl records produced from digital sources, it’s also worth being aware of the poor physical quality of some recently pressed LPs. Some major labels release atrocious records. I made the rookie mistake of purchasing one 180-gram LP online from a reputable retailer that was so warped my stylus might as well have gone on a hike in the Himalayas if I’d dared to play the bloody thing. Two replacements, including one from a separate retailer (a store that only sells vinyl), were even worse. This was an album put out by Rhino/Warner Records. For the next LP I bought, I received the wrong album: somehow the manufacturer managed to print and affix the wrong labels to the record; in other words, right packaging, wrong music, and, of course, the music was not something I’d have wanted to buy in the first place. In any case, lesson learned: if you buy vinyl new, do so from a store where you can check it first.

    As some of you have mentioned, the high price can be an obstacle to getting into vinyl. My solution has been to purchase only those few, deeply-cherished albums that make for a particularly enjoyable vinyl experience. I’d like to think this selectiveness makes my modest turntable setup all the more rewarding.

    Finally, my query has to do with vinyl versions of recent popular music, which is to say music that’s come out in the past decade or two. I’ve noticed that, to judge from the Dynamic Range Database, it’s pretty common to see vinyl that’s much less compressed or brick-walled than the digital releases. Here's an example:

    [​IMG]

    Would I be right in thinking that these figures make for a significant difference in sound quality? By extension, would this make for a good incentive to get into vinyl?

    [edits for typos]
     
  7. k4rstar

    k4rstar Britney fan club president

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    no, the tool used to measure dynamic range in this manner cannot be used on vinyl. the dude who wrote the DR Meter software admitted it doesn't work for it.



    further, it is another common misconception that vinyl sounds better due to a better master than the CD release. this isn't true today and it wasn't true decades ago. this logic can only be applied to recordings where the original master existed in a pre-digital era, and post-digital releases were fucked up by the labels.

    you just totally back pedaled on what you said in your last two posts after i called you out on statements that made no sense. you should at least stick up for what you believe in
     
  8. Azimuth

    Azimuth FKA rtaylor76, Friend

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    I never changed, I just think you misunderstood my points (which might have been more my fault than yours).

    I can appreciate vinyl for it's merits and everything else, but that does not mean I overlook the shortcomings or difficulties in the hill to climb in achieving true hi-fi vinyl playback and claim superiority over other formats.

    And if you want to claim viny superior, that is fine by me. We may not agree, but we are all allowed to think how we want and thus no reason to dislike things outside your own preferences.

    PS - feel fre to PM me anytime of you want to chat.
     
  9. murphythecat

    murphythecat GRU-powered uniformed trumpkin

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    I got into vinyl cause i was obsessed at the time with jazz music and started chasing the best pressings.

    imo, if you love pre 80's music and like good sound, its absurd not to go the vinyl way.
     
  10. Thad E Ginathom

    Thad E Ginathom Friend

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    For most of the decades during which we listened to records because that is how music came, most of us were not in the least bothered with endless fiddling and adjustments: we just listened to music. That is not to say that we didn't know that there were better decks, better cartridges: there were and we did. Perhaps we might have obsessed over it more if we'd been less stoned!

    But if makes me think that there are two routes into vinyl now, and one should buy accordingly. Those who desire audio-mechanical fiddling can buy the decks that not only offer, but require it. Those who do not can buy something that works well out of the box, even though it might have less scope for improvement. People with a history of modding and adjustment will fit the first camp. People who do not (but who might forever worry that some setup thing is wrong!) should stay in the second camp.

    Getting this wrong could lead to frustration and dissatisfaction. Getting it right should lead to more musical pleasure. And tinkering pleasure if that is your thing.
     
  11. Chris F

    Chris F Boyz 4 Now Fanatic - Friend

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    For me the primary reason to buy a turntable is access to music. If you enjoy a genre that predates the CD it's likely there are many incredible albums for which there is no digital release and likely never will be for various reasons. You have to track down and buy the LP which is both expensive and time consuming but ultimately satisfying because it will teach you a lot about the musicians, history, and culture of the music you love.
     
  12. k4rstar

    k4rstar Britney fan club president

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    if there is any doubt that the late 1950s were the peak of electrical recording fidelity, here is an image from the rear jacket of a record i own: Barbara Dane sings Trouble In Mind on the San Francisco Records label. and this is a small-time label credited with less than 30 releases! think about what they had at Columbia, RCA-Victor, etc.

    [​IMG]

    Telefunken & Altec microphones, Western Electric control amplifier and an Ampex tape machine! this equipment and frankly the knowledge of how to get good results out of it has disappeared from the modern recording studio. if you stick with digital, you will never hear recordings of this era in their original format. the best you can hope for is an unmolested digital transfer, usually from the record itself and not master tapes.

    for popular music, the labels are in charge of the digital reissues and DO molest the sound, usually as an excuse to get you to buy the same music again and again. every Jefferson Airplane album on TIDAL is a remaster and sounds awful compared to even an amateur needle-drop of the original LPs.
     
  13. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    As @k4rstar said, the DR tool is kinda borked fo vinyl rips. However, in this case, examine the waveforms and do a spectrum analysis. Or just listen. The vinyl is a better master because the EQ is different. The waveforms show better dynamic range on the vinyl, but I'm not really hearing it. I don't hear any greater resolution on the vinyl either.
     
  14. JayC

    JayC Resident Crash Test Dummy

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    The options in your list when going MC would hit at about $1300-ish, which isn't exactly a budget price, and your point is very clear in terms of how expensive it is to get into this world and how much it costs in money and effort to maintain what you have. I completely agree, and coming to think of it you havent added some additional costs for vinyl maintenance - a brush, anti static gun, possibly a spin clean and so on..

    A while ago I had to sell all my stuff and over the last month I've slowly started building my system again, I had to bring in a vinyl component too. What keeps me here is that I really like sitting down and slowing my life down by listening to a whole album. Its an expensive way to do that but it works.

    For completeness - what would those used $550-$750 ($1000-$1500 new) MC phono stages be? I feel like we see a lot of talk about the lower end of the price spectrum (TC-750 and Mani) and much higher end stuff, but there's a gap in the middle
     
  15. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    For phonostages round $550, I'd look used. This is keeping MC in mind: Sutherland PH3D is powered by a bunch of D batteries. deep stage, can roll opamps, can probably even make your own PS, lacks bass texture. F117 Nighthawk is battery powered but is rechargeable, black background with zippy transients, however mid-centric tonality. The TC-750 modded with DIY SUTs (I like the cheapest Jensons with this combo). At the end, it all depends upon synergies with the rest of the components and personal preferences. There is a lot of $3000-$5000 stuff that I wasn't impressed by.
     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2020
  16. Regular Petey

    Regular Petey Facebook Friend

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    I purchased a used Van Alstine Vision Q phono preamp over the weekend for $340. It has settings for 40, 54, 60 and 66dB of gain and far more load input options than Schiit Mani (my other phono preamp). I didn't find anything written about it on SBAF, good or bad, so I figured I would give it a try. Once I get it and my new turntable, I can write something about it in the Preamps thread. The guy I bought it from said that he prefers his Audio Research PH3 to the Vision Q, but the ARC PH3 retails for 3-4x what the Vision Q does. Used ARC PH3 units come up for sale more often than the Van Alstine Vision Q though.
     
  17. JoshMorr

    JoshMorr Friend

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    I have a ARC phono (PH-7) and think the world of it. Too many tubes, but sound is best ive had yet. Recently snagged a Sounsmith MCP-2 at the recommendation of some friends to try and compare to the more expensive and considerably more "audiophile approved" ARC. Can report back, but one person here liked the MCP2 much better (with Soundsmith cart) than the MoFi phono. I bought Marvs PH3D from him, and while it did have a deep stage, it sounded fairly flat and boring. It may have been the stock Opamps, I never rolled. Nighthawks pretty rarely pop up, and Ive heard of people having problems with batteries not charging, inability to charge and listen at the same time, and RSA is out of business (correct?) so support probably isnt ideal. Parks Audio Budgie is also in the out of production category, but give you some tube characteristics and generally falls in the under $500 range.
     
  18. Regular Petey

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    Speaking of going down the vinyl rabbit hole, I've fallen in, and can't get out. My new SL-1500C should be coming tomorrow, and I already ordered an "open box" SL-1200GR off of eBay this morning for $1200. The guy said that he got the SL-1200GR as a birthday present, but that he already has three other fairly high end turntables, and that it would be a hassle to create space for a fourth turntable. He said that he just got it a couple weeks ago and it only has an hour or two on it. He said that it would be disassembled and packaged exactly as it was from the factory. It's on its way to me.

    I've been messaging the guy back and forth throughout the day, discussing cartridges and phono stages. I was initially thinking that there must be some catch, with someone selling a virtually new $1700 turntable for $1200, but he seems very nice and has a perfect eBay rating. He said that he is friends with Mike Sanders of Quicksilver Audio. I hadn't heard of Quicksilver before, but it appears to be well designed tube gear at reasonable prices. At first glance, Quicksilver seems to have many similarities to Van Alstine. The guy that I bought the turntable from thought very highly of his Quicksilver tube phono preamp. I can't say that I like the aesthetics of the unit, but I may keep an eye out for a used one at a good price. MC is done through a SUT.

    If I was going to have a second turntable, it's nice knowing that I can easily interchange headshell/cartridge combinations between turntables. Now to build a wall mounted rack to get all of this off of my bouncy floor.
     
  19. skem

    skem Friend

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    Informative as to the fidelity challenges for vinyl.

    and informative as to the fidelity challenges for digital.


    tl;dr., digital is more idiot compatible but not idiot proof.
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2020
  20. famish99

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    Yeah that would be me. The SUT based design of the MCP2 meant that there was a lot less noise compared to the high gain settings of the MoFi. The MoFi was still a pretty competent phono, but the MCP2 edges the MoFi out in slam, is a bit more resolving of microdetail, and is more engaging.
     

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