Router/Mesh Network Recommendation

Discussion in 'Computer Audiophile: Software, Configs, Tools' started by Colgin, Jun 13, 2020.

  1. dasman66

    dasman66 Self proclaimed lazy ass - friend

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    Aside from $200+ less expensive, I have a hard time figuring out the difference between the R510 unleashed and R310 unleashed (I'm not a network guru, so much of the stuff in the spec sheets was over my head). Am I correct that the primary difference is that the R310 doesn't have smart mesh? Or is there something else significantly different?

    If no meshing, then how do you connect multiple R310s together?
     
  2. SineDave

    SineDave Friend

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    The R510 has a better antenna inside, so it will handle interference and more clients better than the 310.

    They are both 2x2 APs (meaning they can send and receive on 2 channels at the same time).

    In a home environment it wouldn't make a huge difference unless you are in one of two scenarios:

    1) An apartment or condo where you have tons of wireless "noise" - the 510 will be better
    2) A large home or a lot of thick walls/barriers where the better antennas on the 510 will be better.
     
  3. Metro

    Metro Friend

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    @SineDave, I hope you can bear with me on some very basic questions.

    Until now, I've only used wireless routers for home consumers, connected to a cable modem. As I started looking into the Ruckus models mentioned, I understand that they are only WiFi access points without integrated router. Would I also need to get a separate router, and what would you recommend?
     
  4. SineDave

    SineDave Friend

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    Hi @Metro , you don't need a separate router (you can use whatever you have today from your ISP). You just turn off the wifi built into your current router/cable/DSL modem, and plug the Ruckus into it with a power supply or power injector.

    I threw the below together earlier today for @CEE TEE as he was pulling the trigger and wanted to know how to hook it up. In his example, it's an AT&T gateway:

     
  5. Metro

    Metro Friend

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    Okay, got it. A router does need to be in the chain, but most people can reuse something they already have.

    In my case, I have cable internet connected to a standalone Netgear modem, connected to a Nest WiFi. If I disable wifi on the Nest, it effectively becomes a standalone router which I can connect to a Ruckus wifi access point.
     
  6. SineDave

    SineDave Friend

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    You could also use the netgear and remove the nest entirely
     
  7. Metro

    Metro Friend

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    It is a Netgear CM1000 which is only a cable modem. There doesn't need to be a router in the chain?
    https://www.netgear.com/home/products/networking/cable-modems-routers/CM1000-1AZNAS.aspx

    Edit:
    Looked into it some more. The "Unleashed" products include router functionality. I thought Unleashed referred to the phone app but it is more than that. Not all Ruckus products are Unleashed.
    https://www.commscope.com/globalassets/digizuite/61796-ds-unleashed-portfolio.pdf

    The Unleashed Master AP can be configured in Gateway mode to provide routing, NAT and DHCP functions for all devices in a local area network, in addition to serving as the controller and serving clients.

     
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2020
  8. dasman66

    dasman66 Self proclaimed lazy ass - friend

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    I thought I'd update this thread with my latest experience.

    I live an an old, 1879 house with thick walls, horsehair plaster, and an addition that was built without removing the aluminum siding on the wall between the original and new (they just put furring strips on it and hung drywall). Needless to say, wifi has always been a challenge in our house.

    I have/had a Netgear Orbi system with one router and 2 satellites. The router was in the ground floor of the main house, we had one satellite upstairs and a second satellite in the downstairs addition, right inside the entry to the addition (the location was the only spot that eliminated the aluminum siding from killing the connection). This setup worked well when initially installed... good coverage and speed on the ground floor and mostly well on the 2nd floor (with some dead spots in the corners of the 2nd floor). The biggest issue has been that the connectivity has steadily gone downhill over the 2 yrs we had it... firmware updates seemed to cause more problems than they solved and dropouts (30sec-1min loss of connection) was becoming a regular occurrence.

    Based on previous posts from @SineDave, I picked up (2) r510's (new) and (1)r610 (used) on ebay. I wanted to use the r610 as the Master and the two r510's as the mesh points. After some problems with firmware (TLDR, downgrade to 200.4 firmware from 2017), these seem to be every bit as good as described.

    First hurdle was flashing the r610... it was sold as "unleashed and flashed with current firmware", but starting it up I found that it was not as advertised. It was running standalone firmware and could only be used with a Ruckus controller.

    2-3 hours later (since I had no idea what I was doing), I had it running the new unleashed firmware (v200.8) and quickly setup the r610 and both r510's were added to the mesh. Things looked good, coverage was a little better than the Orbi system... but it was slow. I mean, real slow.... like have 300/300 fiber and was only getting 7-10 down using speedtest on wifi (Orbi was giving me over 125 down). Strangely, upload on the ruckus was running over 100, so this was a down only problem. Using Ruckus's handy Speedflex test in the bios, I could see that downloads between the master/mesh were running at half the speed as uploads between the AP's.

    Reading the forums at Ruckus, the speed problem has apparently been hanging around since at least the 200.6 version of the firmware (early 2019). There are people saying that the new owners of Ruckus (Commscope, used to be Arris) are the problem, with a loud contingent of complainers on their support forums.

    After reading a boatload of threads, the best solution I could see was to downgrade to older firmware. Various posts on the forum recommended either 200.6 from early 2019 or 200.4 from 2017... and setting up the AP's again (at least setup is fairly painless... I really like the Ruckus interface).

    I tried the 200.8 firmware (slow), I tried the 200.6 firmware (better), then the 200.4 firmware and my experience matches the support forum, 200.4 is the way to go. Speedflex is showing 600+ up/dn between AP's and 400+ between my galaxy S10e and the AP. Speedtest shows that ORBI is a little faster than the Ruckus mesh, but they are close enough that you can't really tell in real world use.

    The biggest upside has been stability and coverage. The Orbi was ever so slightly faster, but with Ruckus, we get coverage everywhere (even outside on the patio) and we haven't had any drops in about 2 wks. Time to box up and sell the Orbi...

    @SineDave :bow:

    ------edit for spelling-------
     
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2020
  9. CEE TEE

    CEE TEE MOT: NITSCH

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    Yep, I got a used R710 on the ‘bay after @SineDave recommendation and research.

    Good price but didn’t end up being an Unleashed version even though the name, description, and email contact with seller ensured it would be.

    Well, not a big deal. Just needed to get the Unleashed FW and load it on the AP to be able to use the Unleashed app to set it up.

    Working great, thanks @SineDave !
     
  10. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    The time came for me to upgrade my wi-fi equipment.

    Originally, back in the days of 802.11 a/b/g, I bought a few routers that quickly became landfill.

    At some point in time when the 802.11n came out I got tired of the crap-ware. A friend of mine suggested the Asus black diamond: The venerable RT-N56U.

    The RT-N56U has been with me for about 8 years and has done a wonderful job. So good in fact that I never looked back or cared about the wireless consumer offerings for quite some time. However, with the COVID lock down I've decided to look again.

    It seems the days of 802.11ac went unnoticed by me, and we are now in the 802.11ax transition times.

    And boy is the market a complete f'ing mess. I looked at the main consumer vendors (Netgear, Asus, TP Link and Linksys) and their offerings are very confusing. The prices are all over the map. Amazon and other online retailers feel like the stock market with random advertising incomprehensive to the average Joe: MU-MIMO, OFDMA, SU-MIMO, beamforming, Tri-band, Dual-band, Extender, Access Point, Mesh, iMesh, 4x4, 3x3, 2x2, 160 MHz, 80+80 MHz, backhaul... f**k!

    I know what MIMO, OFDMA, beamforming, tri/dual-band, and some of that stuff means in general terms. But I don't expect most folks would know. And more importantly, I don't know what the marketing monkeys really mean by it all. So I read. Information is all over the place.

    For the most part it seems a lot of the expensive offerings are selling shit that is immature, unsupported, and sometimes not even enabled in their own equipment whatever the pretty box may say.

    I didn't have much time, so I settled for what seemed stable and well regarded: the Netgear R7800. I have two Netgear NAS: A very old ReadyNAS NV+ and a ReadyNAS PRO 6 Business. The PRO 6 was a mistake. The NV+ is still going, but it is very slow now. I will never buy another NAS from Netgear for simple reason: Their FW support SUCKS! and they do not support their HW on the long run.

    So how about the R7800? Well, the FW SUCKS! So I loaded Voxel's FW on it. The interface still sucks. But it seems to do the job. Unfortunately, powerful as it might be, I still have a dead spot. And I ended up buying an EX7500 extender. Only to find that damned thing would break link with the router randomly. This is what f'ing Netgear had to say about that:

    https://my-wifiextnet.net/resolved-netgear-ex7500-range-extender-dropping-connection/

    That's right folks. "Problem solved" (the picture in the Netgear link is not even that of the EX7500 extender):

    1) Use the "right" network (identified by a different SSID): For f**k sake, the extender SSID is the same as that of the base router in my configuration! They are not different!
    2) Power cycle your extender: Are you kidding me?! I have to do this shit randomly every other day!? And green lights my ass, the lights are f'ing blue when this thing is happy!
    3) Keep the extender away from interference: WTF!? My house is in some random and boring area in SoCal. No hot radars behind my mini-yard. My primitive N router had no issues with interference.
    4) Install the latest FW: It f'ing came with the latest FW.
    5) Reset the extender: What!? Every other day? This shit is broken.

    I was about to return this expensive piece of shit (including the raved and beloved R7800), until I found this:

    https://community.netgear.com/t5/Ni...ghz-connection-to-router-once-or/td-p/1744174

    Turns out, one has to disable "Smart Connect" from the R7800 (and similar feature in other routers) for the Extender to be stable. "Smart Connect" and similar features in other routers allows the 2.4 and 5 GHz radios to have the same SSID, instead of XXX and XXX-5G. The problem is explained in the post above. But in a nutshell it seems the router may switch the extender to 2.4 GHz during load balancing and it will croak until reset. Solution is to force the router/extender to XXX-5G. So after that discovery I decided to keep it. It seems like Netgear could fix this, but the theory is that they will not for fears of cannibalizing their Orbi mesh offerings. It's a theory, but it's not non-sensical. The backhaul approach between the R7800 and the EX7500 is similar to Orbi. I have experienced Netgear giving their customers the finger with their NAS products.

    With all of what I know now, would I buy the R7800 + EX7500 combo? No. If I was a bit more stubborn and wanted an 802.11ac top ranker, I learned too late of the Synology offering that is basically an R7800 with a much better FW and even more flash (non-volatile memory for even more goodies):

    https://www.smallnetbuilder.com/wireless/wireless-reviews/33075-synology-rt2600ac-router-reviewed
    (In case folks are wondering why the Synology is not a Rev10 top ranker in the venerable SNB site, it is actually tops in Rev9 but likely it was just not tested at all for Rev10, which for me was very confusing).

    I would stay away from all the AX bullshit, because most of their features seem to be that: unsupported and immature at this point.

    All that said, note that in my situation even the Synology RT2600ac is likely to need an extender.

    So what else is there? Aside from the RT2600ac, I would have likely bought one of these systems instead:

    1) For all that I hate about Netgear their packaged mesh system seems attractive: Orbi BK30 ($180).
    https://www.amazon.com/NETGEAR-RBK30-100NAS-Orbi-Whole-System/dp/B06XJMFDRP
    2) Embrace the router+extender solution and go for the D-Link COVR AC3900 system (perhaps not as awesome as R7800 + EX7500 or RT2600ac + EX7500, but it's lots more affordable and based on what I've read, it gets the job done for $120).
    https://www.amazon.com/D-Link-AC3900-Whole-Wi-Fi-System/dp/B0711TPWZY

    I paid $250 for the currently hard to find R7800 (Newegg) and about $180 for the also currently hard to find EX7500 (Walmart), not including tax. So total was around $500. Not the best of deals compare to the options above. Note the Synology Pseudo-R7800 (about the same HW is currently $200 and somewhat easier to find currently: https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1312001-REG/synology_rt2600ac_wi_fi_ac_2600.html).
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2020
  11. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    f**k:

    https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07VXCF5NX/

    Seems like the what I have (w tri band extender using dedicated 5 GHz backhaul), only $160 cheaper and with better FW.

    When is SNB Tim gonna put Synology, instead of the Netgear assholes, on the spot?
     
  12. Hands

    Hands Overzealous Auto Flusher - Measurbator

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    So, I have the XR500, which is almost identical to the R7800. Main difference is the firmware, being "gaming" oriented and all. I think it might also have more RAM?

    I got tired of Netgear's shitty firmware and slow updates. The whole DumaOS thing did have some cool and beneficial features, but it really lacked stability and consistency.

    I slapped DD-WRT on it, and it works really damn well on the XR500. I know that's a stereotypical thing to say, but it's true. I've played around with custom firmware on a variety of routers for years, and this is one of the better outcomes I've seen.

    It's not for the faint of heart. The install process alone is nitpicky and annoying, not to mention required a really weird song and dance with various resets, power offs, and recovery mode boots to get it fully operational on the initial DD-WRT install.

    But it's smooth sailing after that if you're moderately familiar with networking and don't mind doing a lot of up-front, one-time tuning to get it all working well.

    I no longer have to wait ages for the 5GHz band to show up on boot, nor do the bands randomly disappear from time to time. My Nest cam, which is just across a small kitchen and through the garage, in particular is much more stable than before. Using 2.4GHz band for that.

    Range isn't necessarily better. If anything, I see it lose signal strength a bit sooner, but it's always more reliable despite this.

    I just use it as an access point these days with a X86-based router/firewall doing heavy lifting. Consumer routers can't easily handle full QoS on a gigabit connection, sadly.

    I've heard good things about the Orbi system from a coworker. He had both generations of the Google WiFi mesh setup prior. First gen was solid, which I bought off him for my parents (also solid for them), second gen not so much.

    The higher end Asus routers generally seem decent. Not perfect, and not cheap, but better than the normal crap.

    This is more just hopefully-informative rambling for anyone with or considering something like the R7800 and not so much me telling you, @ultrabike, or anyone else really, to just install DD-WRT. It's no miracle solution nor the answer in every situation and setup.
     
  13. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    Yeah. I heard the Orbi system his taking over the Google Wifi mesh, which is not measuring up now.

    That said, Netgear usually drops the ball. Synology already kicked their asses in the NAS market. I should have bought one of their solutions instead of their POS ReadyNAS PRO 6. I had two RMAs on the PRO 6. The first and second replacement were used units that didn't last long. By the time the last replacement died (power supply issue), they discontinued the PRO 6. I was able to get one of the last ones in the end. I had 4 of these POS units: 1 original unit that died early, 2 RMAs that also died early, and 1 new unit that has been running so far for a few years now.

    The FW on the PRO 6 is a dead end now. Meanwhile, Synology units available when the PRO 6 came out are still supported and going strong.

    In light of Orbi, I just found these:

    https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1437848-REG/synology_wireless_tri_band_mesh_router.html
    https://www.amazon.com/Synology-RT2600ac-Dual-Band-Gigabit-MR2200ac/dp/B07VXCF5NX/

    These look like better deals than the Orbi stuff.

    For one, Synology does not seem ready to f**k everyone with a solid AC2600ac router + EX extender with random drops, just to keep their Orbi business going strong.

    @Hands, I also considered the XR500, but it seemed indeed like a repackaged R7800 for even more $. It is easier to find now. It almost seems like Netgear is steering folks to the XR500 by making the R7800 scarce. Possible the only reason the R7800 is still around is because it's so popular. But the last FW update was on Dec last year, and it's shit. Which is why I went Voxel.

    I said the BK30 looked pretty awesome. But the Synology bundle looks even more awesome. In the reviews, nobody is complaining about drops. Supports openly a single SSID. Uses dedicated 5 GHz backhaul like the Tri-Band extenders and the Orbi. Hell, is like the correct marriage between an R7800 and Orbi w even more awesome FW. Note the RT2600AC was shit tons more flash than the R7800 and the XR500 while the rest (radios and all) is the same. And it cost less!

    I would go back and buy that instead of the Orbi or the D-Link if I did it all over again.
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2020
  14. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    Just as a data point. Synology seemed to have the same issue. But it was FW addressed:

    https://community.synology.com/enu/forum/2/post/124045\

    Despite all complains, the OP mentioned:
    UPDATE SRM 1.2.2-7915 resolved the issue.

    I can't confirm cuz I have the way more expensive for less R7800 + EX7500 Nogear system, and in that case I can fully confirm the drop issue, and their (hush hush / undisclosed) no same SSID for 2.4 and 5 GHz "solution".
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2020
  15. insidious meme

    insidious meme Ambivalent Kumquat

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    ASUS has a good history of updating their firmware compared to other consumer offerings.

    I've been on ASUS routers for some time now. I bought an RT-N66U back in Dec 2013, and it worked well up until I bought a RT-86U in Dec 2018. I replaced it mostly because it was getting older, and I felt I was due to look around the market for a new one. I still keep the RT-N66U as a backup.

    I bought the RT-AC86U and it worked pretty well. But likely because of me and my brother being home all the time now because of the pandemic, it went down. At a bad time for me. In the middle of one of my busier work days, the SSID's for the router disappeared. That hasn't happened to me before, so I tried a couple of things to see if I could get it back after using my phone to tether the work laptop to the internet. Failing that, I brought back the RT-N66U, and it worked well again. I also ordered another ASUS router, The RT-AC68U. Unfortunately, the RT-N66U was very warm and I didn't think it would last too long. During a down time, I decided to bring back the RT-86U, and it started working again. However a couple of days later the SSID's disappeared again.

    The RT-AC68U showed up and I set that up. But I felt annoyed to have the RT-AC86U, a high mid tier/low high tier consumer router (and it's not cheap pricing) fail on me after a year and a half. I didn't really want to junk it. So I turned it into an access point, and let the RT-AC68U just be a normal router. It's worked pretty well since then, having the work split up.

    I've read the Netgear Orbi mesh system get good marks with ppl, but my condo isn't a big enough place to warrant getting one. And the ASUS routers can be set up as a mesh system as well. But I didn't care to go that route considering one of the routers couldn't stand up on its own for too long.

    I also dabbled in looking at ppl using more enterprise router stuff at home from companies like Ubiquiti, Ruckus and Mikrotik per the previous posts, mainly because of the reliability factor that the consumer brands don't normally have. I didn't pick up on any of the Synology offerings until later.
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2020
  16. YMO

    YMO Chief Fun Officer

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    I have the basic TP Link AC 1750 that has been serving me for over four years. No issues on its firmware. I wish in network transfer speeds were faster, but I don't have the fastest internet or a big apartment (620 sq ft). This makes it hard for me to upgrade to a better router at this time.

    I had an Asus router AC1900, and its FW update bricked the whole router. This made me not do Asus again on routers.
     
  17. Metro

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  18. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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  19. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    It didn't fully work for me.

    My son's room is very problematic because the AC unit metal duct behind the room front walls blocks the signal. Furthermore, the router is on the first floor and all the rooms are on the second. I had to buy an extender facing both my daughter's and son's rooms from the hallway of the second floor. The signal is being pushed through the doors now. The fact that the extender is tri-band and an outlet plug is perfect. The rooms are now getting 60 to 270 Mbps according to some faulty WiFi Sweetspots iPhone app (faulty because I tested it using a hot spot against my xps13: Sweetspots said 305 Mbps, but I downloaded a file from my NAS at 415 Mbps).

    Another issue is signal all the way to the front yard. It is not always easy to locate a WiFi router in the optimum spot. It depends on where the coax access point is. And that is behind a couple of walls from the front yard. I get about 20 to 40 Mbps to the living room, but once you step outside to the front yard kiss WiFi goodbye. So yet another extender would make that front yard WiFi covered.

    This was the exact same situation with my old RT-N56U. Except the speeds where much lower with the old ASUS.

    In short. the R7800 increase speeds considerably. But range is just as shitty.

    This should be made very clear: The R7800 (or any awesome sauce single router) WILL NOT SOLVE RANGE PROBLEMS. An extender and a mesh will. This from very recent experience. Furthermore, not all extenders and mesh systems are created equal. There are some very shitty ones. Probably most of them, and one has to pay premium for awesome speeds and integration at this point in time.

    Which is why I kick myself for not getting the Synology solution with superior HW and FW to the R7800, and allegedly much better integration with it's extenders (likely competitive with a real Mesh such as Orbi), and all for a lot less $.

    The Synology UI is awesome too.

    I like that the Notgear extender is pluggable and pushes high rates. But I did not know about the random drops and the unwillingness from Notgear to fix this problem. The prices are horrid to.

    Edit: One more thing. Though SNB can be misleading sometimes (they seem to be Notgear bitches), Tim is not full of shit. Their why MU-MIMO, OFDMA, and AX exposure articles are very good. Their reviews are also very good. Again, they can be misleading. It is obvious to me that they are pushing Nevergear, even when in their Synology test matched and/or beat the living shit out of Poorgear. They did show R7800 better support for MU-MIMO, but at the same time, nobody cares about MU-MIMO right now. And given HW specs and FW responsiveness, if and when it does matter I fully expect Notgear to drop support for the R7800 and Synology to add full MU-MIMO support to their existing AC2600 star router. I say this not because I want to shill Synology, but because that's what I saw in the NAS arena.
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2020
  20. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    I also played around with my RT-N56U, to see how I could still get something out of it. However, it can only be configured as a router or an access point. And I don't want to run CAT-5/6 cable upstairs. The speeds in the 5 GHz band were very high by yesterday's standards. But today, the R7600 is many times faster.

    I understand well now that going from N to AC is the way to go.

    Furthermore, ASUS is been known to push mesh with their random products. It is also known that it does not work well. It has been found that a good mesh system requires good mesh management, and a weak router by todays standards w poorly supported FW is probably not going to do great. Proly better than nothing. On the other hand, if access point configuration is not a problem, that might put the old routers to good use. But not mesh. Other vendors are also following suit with, use the old router with your new router to form a mesh. But from the reports, it can only be said that it's better than nothing.

    Thank you also for sharing your recent experience with ASUS. From what you are saying, it seems their reliability has gone down a bit. A swore I would never buy another TP Link cheap thing because everything I bought from them died in less than a year. I'm getting very disappointed with Mehgear now. Seems ASUS is going down to hell as well.
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2020

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