BWC (Big Woofer Club): Why Big Woofers Matter

Discussion in 'Speakers' started by nishan99, Aug 5, 2020.

  1. nishan99

    nishan99 Friend

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    Will the open baffle designs complement the big woofers or defeat its purpose (efficiency… etc.)?

    From what I see it seems it's the big woofers that complement the OB designs and not the other way around.

    I have never heard an OB speakers so idk now if I like their fast decaying bass they're known for. If it's anything like planar bass in headphones then it's more likely not my thing.
     
  2. Metro

    Metro Friend

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  3. murphythecat

    murphythecat GRU-powered uniformed trumpkin

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    nah, big woofers doesnt equal muscle cars. big woofers are the F1 of bass reproduction. your 6.5" bass is a corolla in comparison.

    one day youll get it
     
  4. Serious

    Serious Inquisitive Frequency Response Plot

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    @nishan99 I'd say OBs sound rather like accurate open dynamic driver headphone bass (like the HD800) rather than planars. I guess you could argue that closed speakers are more like closed headphones, but since there are so many closed speakers I wouldn't generalize it like that. I would say the bass does generally decay faster than with closed speakers, so if that's not your thing you might not like it. However I would definitely try to audition OBs before coming to conclusions like that. I could even see people preferring large closed floorstanders with many 6-8" woofers over an OB depending on the sound they aim for. However I would not call that fast or accurate bass.

    As far as big woofers complementing OB designs... I'd say it is out of necessity. While I haven't heard something like the LX521 yet, I don't think it makes much sense to build a smaller OB than that simply because you are going to hit SPL limits quite quickly with small woofers in an OB. Most OB designs "equalize" for the bass rolloff in some way, requiring lots of linear volume displacement, something you can much more easily achieve with larger woofers than by trying to squeeze more and more excursion out of smaller woofers.
    There are some relatively small OB designs or designs with small enclosures like the RiPol that I'm sure can sound very good given their size, but I think for many people once they build something with a low WAF like an OB speaker (requiring lots of space behind the speakers) they'll figure they can just go reasonably large and tick off many boxes: High sensitivity, full-range sound with realistic sounding dynamics and fantastic articulation in the lower registers. Something like that.
     
  5. Vtory

    Vtory Audiophile™

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    Agreed with this but I'd rather list HD600 or Utopia. Decay starts from higher freq (a little above resonance freq of the drivers), but very gradually. HD800 was a little midbassy compared to the above to my ears.

    But want to make sure dynamic headphones (and ported speakers) by their nature blur below drivers' res freq. Fully-leaking or open structure do much less this thing. So, SR1a could be the closest to OB bass, but I don't think nishan heard it before (if so, he wouldn't ask).
     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2020
  6. dasman66

    dasman66 Self proclaimed lazy ass - friend

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    I've found the last 7-8 pgs of discussion highly amusing and enjoyable...this has been the WWE of audio discussions for me.

    I have never listened to BWC speakers, but reading this brings them to the top of my want to do list.
    Seconding this request, is there an accepted "starter" OB 15" based speaker plan/build that makes sense and is accessible for someone that doesn't have any of the technical expertise being presented in this thread. I guess I'm kind of asking... what is the Bottlehead Crack of OB BWC speakers?

    I'd love to spend a weekend or two in my workshop putting something together to try out. Amp would likely by my Mogwai SE, so high efficiency is required.
     
  7. Vtory

    Vtory Audiophile™

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    If you're skillful in handcrafting and DIYing, go through this thread multiple times. Many DIY stories there too.
    https://www.superbestaudiofriends.org/index.php?threads/pap-trio-15-and-diy-discussion.6197/

    I went for finished products because I am not that skillful + I don't have place to work on baffles (no time/energy either..).
     
  8. RobS

    RobS RobS? More like RobDiarrhea.

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    Welcome to our futile ladder match. I just hope it hasn't discouraged SBAFers from getting into two channel. Big drivers, small drivers, medium drivers, I think the folks here would all agree it is enormously difficult to go back to listening to headphones. Even if forced to play at very low volumes, I will still use speakers. I just received a headphone on loan today from an SBAFer and after like the first 30 seconds of using them, I immediately missed my speakers and took off the headphones. There just ain't any going back. They just do everything better, even the so called "intimacy" of headphones. Problem with headphones for me is the music is too much "in the head" rather than "out there in front of me" that has a sort of tangibility to it.

    When I first started lurking on this board, @zerodeefex posted something that stuck with me early on: get a modest headphone setup and go immediately into two-channel, spend all your money there. You will earn so much more dividends there than an uber-expensive headphone setup. Even if you have to use them in nearfield. Yup I still have speakers going even if I'm blasting A/C to turn my room into an icebox. And yup I don't have the best room. And yup it did take a long time to get the right pieces together to make it work because I'm hyper neurotic and unreasonably picky. Still worth it though.

    Back to you JR...
     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2020
  9. E_Schaaf

    E_Schaaf MOT: E.T.A Headphones

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    There's a reason the 38mm HD650 driver shits the bed on the bottom end compared to basically any 50mm driver. Why shouldn't the same be true for speakers?

    I work at a place where I could have any speaker in inventory at or below dealer cost. In some cases up to literally 75% off. And yet I'm here at home with my L55's I bought from Craig at EC for $75. @RobS I echo @k4rstar 's suggestion to track down one of the classics at low cost if you want a taste in your own home with your own gear without the massive time investment of DIY. This prospect also won't depreciate - just flip em at the same price if you don't like them.

    Regardless, if you have a shitty room or poor placement, the bass is going to suck in terms of linearity and extension regardless of what speakers you have. Maybe I'd prefer a properly calibrated acoustically-treated small-woofer setup with high quality front-end gear over a BWC setup in a shitty tile room with shitty electronics. But all else being the same, the larger woofers (assuming they have robust magnets and voice coils) will simply do better.

    That being said, on all fronts other than physical conduction of low frequencies in my body, I prefer the bass response I get out of some of my headphones more than my L55's and dual 15"s. Total heresy, I know. But to me a suboptimal room response in the bottom end with wonky nodes is way more distracting to my listening than the size of the woofers. Might not matter if I listened to other types of music.
     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2020
  10. nishan99

    nishan99 Friend

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    Headphones are a compromise. You only use them when you can't use speakers.
    The best aspects about them are the sheer resolution and extension they provide for the $.
     
  11. dasman66

    dasman66 Self proclaimed lazy ass - friend

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    I just spent the last couple hours reading that thread... since I'm not an audio engineer or speaker designer, most of that discussion flew way over my head.

    I can build almost anything, but when it comes to electronics I'm more of a "follow the recipe" guy. I have no idea where to even start when it comes to designing a crossover for specific drivers, what drivers synergize well, etc. I had pretty much settled on building a Seas A26 (with custom veneered enclosure), until I read the last 7 pgs of Smackdown discussion.

    Now I want to try a BWC type speaker (and liked the few comments related to "inexpensive drivers" in this thread). But after reading the PAP Trio thread I'm second guessing the "inexpensive driver" part of the discussion here.

    I guess I need to find time to do more research on the various designs already out there...
     
  12. RobS

    RobS RobS? More like RobDiarrhea.

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    Size of the driver has nothing to do with low end frequencies unless we are talking higher SPL. That's your goal, to go loud enough to make you go deaf and create an earthquake in your living space to shake the shit outta your ass. You have dual subs. In an apartment. I hope you ain't pissing off the other tenants.

    My hearing is much more sensitive than millenials who have already blown it in school using iPod earbuds. I understand the desire to crank it. I will be in pain before my woofers bottom out on me (and I've bottomed out a pair before). The woofers I have are very linear and I cannot hear any audible distortion. They'll still play loud as f**k and the bass is f'ing incredible even 10ft-15ft away. I'm pretty sure if I get the configuration right, with just a little bit of treatment, I'm going to get a flat response down to 35hz. I know the resonance of the driver is around 37hz. I will have to measure it.

    What's cool is the dynamic range of certain recordings I have. They can play very quiet and then explode with silly fast transients. Something I've only heard on my current system.

    I just see no gains getting larger woofers unless I need absurd levels to achieve hearing loss.
     
  13. dark_energy

    dark_energy Friend

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  14. E_Schaaf

    E_Schaaf MOT: E.T.A Headphones

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    I'm glad you're happy with your system @RobS , I don't mean my pro-BWC comments to suggest I think anyone else's system (especially w/ gear I've never heard) sucks on principle or that anyone's a fool for picking the gear that they do. Of course aside from ORFAS wallet flexers or those who follow blind advice from salespeople/HF/Stereophile, or those without a point of reference (whether that be first-hand experience with one's own ears or a strong ability to read and interpret measurements).

    I tend to calibrate my gear compass to 'like' and 'not for me' as opposed to better or worse, though certain patterns and principles do often reveal themselves when you hear hundreds of different gear combos 5 days of the week for multiple years. At some point you have some idea what to expect, though there's always room to be surprised. Always exceptions both good and bad. Always surprising synergies too. I'm oriented towards an aesthetic sonic goal, not a 'true' or 'perfect' response (which arguably can't exist anyway).

    Post-rona I invite you to swing by my place and enjoy some records. I think you'll like how it sounds at low levels too. I don't even listen on my system over 90dB most nights out of courtesy for my neighbors. Personally I feel the BWC benefits are just as present at low levels as they are high. The high sensitivy is nice too. Don't need more than the 25W my F7 puts out (or 8W from a 300B SET). edit - Some of the BWC benefit is the ability to use amps with simpler topologies, less complex distortion patterns, etc. There's an argument to be had there.
     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2020
  15. AdvanTech

    AdvanTech Friend

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    This is so wrong I can't help but reply. Even at low SPL, bigger woofers are going to do stuff smaller woofers can't. Can you please stop posting about this until you make or hear something else with big woofers? Thanks.
     
  16. RobS

    RobS RobS? More like RobDiarrhea.

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    Such as?
     
  17. AdvanTech

    AdvanTech Friend

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    It's not about thunder. It's about physicality, technicalities, effortlessness, no matter the volume. You could hear a 6" woofer strained to 30hz, a 15" woofer play 80hz, and I'll bet you'll point to the bigger one and say "that's bass."

    Don't believe the marketing. Physics doesn't change with trends.
     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2020
  18. murphythecat

    murphythecat GRU-powered uniformed trumpkin

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    are you trolling?
     
  19. monacelli

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    Rob, this is reductive at best, and nonsense at worst. Can a 1" tweeter make satisfying bass? Why not just listen to a nice 1-way speaker with a tweeter running full range? (I could make a joke about having a half-inch penis and not feeling the need to compensate, but I won't.) Think about the problem in terms of reproduction of acoustic instruments. How big is the pipe corresponding to the lowest note on a pipe organ? How big is a tuba? How big is a contrabass saxophone? (Aside: Why do these instruments *need* to be so big?) If your objective was to reproduce the sounds associated with those instruments as faithfully as possible, would you choose a 4" woofer or a 15" woofer? Nobody is saying you can't enjoy your speakers, or that bookshelf speakers in general don't have a place in the world. They certainly do. But saying that a bookshelf speaker can reproduce the sound of bass-oriented acoustic instruments with the same fidelity as 15" woofers is a bit silly. I don't think you even believe that. And is it so much of a stretch to think that the ability to reproduce such instruments well would translate to more satisfying bass performance when listening to Future Nostalgia? (Awesome record, btw.) Now sure, not every living situation can accommodate big woofers. I don't have the space for them either, so I ordered some Tekton Lore Reference with 8" woofers instead (still in line). I'm sure the bass will be better than on my little BS22's, but no matter how good they sound I'm not going to pretend they've got the same tactility, the same ability to make you feel the music as PAP Trio's or any other well-designed speakers with >12" woofers.
     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2020
  20. RobS

    RobS RobS? More like RobDiarrhea.

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    No 6" woofer, that I'm aware of, is going to extend down to 25hz. Maybe in the higher 20s. You can get 6" drivers to have linear extension down in the 30hz range, with non-existent low distortion. Talking massively tight bass. The bigger the woofer the less control you have which makes the bass performance go to shit. You'd need a big f'ing motor structure and a zero-flex diaphragm. Then there's all the other issues you need to address as I said before with damping, stiffness and so on. It can work, but its complicated and costs a lot of money. A smaller woofer is capable of better acceleration and will have better stiffness, linearity, damping, wider bandwith, less breakup, lower amplitude resonance, etc etc. Transients with super low IMD.
     

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