Camera gear discussions

Discussion in 'Photography and Cameras' started by Bill-P, Oct 15, 2015.

  1. Zhanming057

    Zhanming057 Friend

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    Maybe I'm a little crazy for even considering this, but I'm wondering if I should sell all of my Sony gear and replace it with the Hasselblad X1D II and a couple XCD lenses. There's nothing wrong with the A7r II that I use now. To the contrary, between the A7r II and the RX1R II I've worked on so much output from this sensor that I know precisely how far I can push the files and achieve the look I want.

    The only technical argument in favor of moving to medium format is the quality of the workflow itself. I have a post process heavy workflow and occasionally find myself hitting against the technical limitations of the sensor and looking for workarounds. I shot a Pentax 645Z, which has the same sensor as the X1D II, side by side with the A7rII and, while I much prefer working with the 645Z files, I eventually stuck with the Sony because of the weight and the lack of appreciable gains to the output side for web use. The downsized SRGB web output is what it is though, and I almost never print these days.

    The logical thing to do would be to upgrade to the A7r IV and pocket the $2k in change but the fatter 7R IV body doesn't feel great in the hand, and the camera somehow has fewer creature comforts for dedicated studio work than the X1D (for one example, the X1D has the best built in timer/intervalometer I've ever seen). On the other hand the X1D has a 6-year-old sensor with bad video, semi-unusable autofocus, and a fairly basic lens lineup. The other thing that draws me to Hasselblad is that I had a demo session with the X1D II last year and left with a laundry list of complaints, and since then they've fixed about 85% of them through firmware updates. That makes me feel optimistic about the X system's future.

    I'm writing this here because I'm pretty sure this is going to lead to a flame war on Fred Miranda. Having shot Sony (almost) exclusively for the past 10 years it feels a little treasonous to ditch the E/FE system. The question is if I should get an objectively fairly terrible and outdated camera that I would probably never recommend to another person, just because I like a few things about it.

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  2. ald0s

    ald0s Facebook Friend

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    Mate you have GAS, plain and simple. I'm a digital operator most of the time (shoot the rest) and the latest 35mm sensors will give you more malleability than everything under a GFX100. You are in a system with good AF, a great lens selection, proven reliability and many other QoL features.

    Problems with the X1DII
    Horrible EVF
    No joystick
    Mediocre single point AF (for all intents and purposes)
    Limited lens selection and they are insanely priced and no better than anyone else's
    Slow / non existent customer support from a company owned by an investment firm with an uncertain future
    Not enough buttons, everything is a menu dive
    Anecdotally unreliable (I haven't used one enough to have my own experience)

    I like the leaf shutter and 4:3 format, that's it.

    Also, if you shoot studio, it doesn't tether to Capture 1 which is an instant deal-breaker.
     
  3. Zhanming057

    Zhanming057 Friend

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    The X1D II's EVF is actually pretty good with better eye relief and color tuning than the one on the GFX50S, the Fuji one is bright but has a tendency to blow out whites too early. The only comprehensively better EVF I've seen is the Leica SL2 which combines great colors, eye relief and resolution. You might be thinking about the 1st gen which is 2.36 mil dots and 37 fps.

    I like Fuji's after sales support but the lack of USB charging while operating the GFX 50S is a major issue since the 50mp bodies will eat through batteries on a landscape shoot and being able to hook the camera up to a power bank is a massive quality of life improvement. That and I feel like the 50S and 50R suffer from shutter shock unless shot with electronic front curtain which comes with its own problems. Granted, I have shot a loaner X1D II and only had time with the 50S in a studio...but I actually feel like the latter is the more half-baked of the two products.

    The A7R4 is arguably the most mature mirrorless body on the market, but I will say - for my processing habits at least - that I would much prefer the X1D ii files. It's not that FF can't get there, the D810's ISO 64 mode has the same great color depth as the 645Z, but Sony decided to strike a balance between color and high iso performance that isn't necessarily an either or proposition with a bigger sensor.

    I do agree about the AF problem and I've pretty much accepted that if I get one it'll be mostly shot like how people shoot MFD in a studio, i.e. back button focus to get into the rough range and then MF override for finer adjustments. The lenses are focus by wire which isn't great, though. It's possible that if I buy one I'll stick to the 45mm F4p and wait for more mechanical focus lenses to show up. I no longer qualify for Sony Pro so service is a bit of a wash, although NYC has a Hasselblad center and they've actually been pretty nice. My original X1D ii demo was on July the 4th, one of their guys came over to unlock the showroom and gave me a half hour with the body.
     
  4. ald0s

    ald0s Facebook Friend

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    It may have been hyperbole calling it horrible but after trying the GFX100 / SL2 / R5 viewfinders they are about the only ones I can manage. The X1DII one definitely isn't great.

    Why not get a GFX100? You'll find the system cheaper once you've got 2-3 lenses and it's a MUCH nicer body to shoot with, has fantastic eye relief and is far more appropriate for the studio - it can even be held portrait like an actually useful (studio) camera! I do see that you shoot landscape as well so perhaps its too big, although as someone with large hands I find it comfortable. I agree the 50S is half-baked, has a horrible EVF and I do find some of the Fuji controls small / fiddly. Next.

    The A7R4 has much improved color over the previous generation and its only getting better. We just used an A7Siii loaner from Sony as a B-cam and the color is really good, they didn't specifically give it S-cinetone from the big boy line but its close. The next gen will undoubtedly get the color / menu design updates and be extremely well rounded.

    Future of the company non withstanding, the Nikon Z serious has ISO64, great color, an ergonomic body and lenses that are affordable and near Otus level while being 400g with AF. Wapow!

    Similarly, the EOS R5 has all the good shit, insane AF, better glass, study build and CPS is great in most countries. EyeAF in the studio is such an insane boon honestly you'll wonder how you ever did without it and the newest bodies pretty much nail it.

    This is all grain of salt shit of course from what I see / deal with at work. I totally understand that you have to actually enjoy a camera to shoot it in the first place and at the end of the day a spec sheet is just paper. For some people its all about feel. Personally I couldn't give a shit about MTF curves and perfect focus at 200mm F0.5 of a ballet dancers front eye during a blizzard at night, just looks like a rendered tech demo. I have an X100V and shoot a D850 for work because its reliable and has great files. My guilty pleasure is the Hasselblad H series because it feels good in the hand and has a glorious OVF. It's going the way of the dinosaur though.

    Shoot whatever makes you happy but let's not pretend the X1Dii is a sensible choice for work unless you're an ultralight backpacker trying to overpower the sun at Yosemite with a speedlight.
     
  5. Zhanming057

    Zhanming057 Friend

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    GFX100 is just too big and heavy. It weighs almost exactly as much as a 645Z and without the excellent ergonomics of the Pentax. And 100mp on 44*33 is a bit pointless, the lens hits the diffraction limit before F5.6 and by F10 or so you get less than 50MP of effective printing resolution anyways.

    The ISO 64 color depth comes at the cost of about 2/3rds of a stop of light which means worse high ISO and additionally, because modern sensors are largely ISO invariant, about 2/3rds of a stop less dynamic range at the extreme end of shadow recovery. This is not unimportant since having even half a EV more at +2 or +3 gives you a lot more room to power through uneven lighting and avoid using grad filters and such.

    I will say this in favor of the X1D II in that Hasselblad knows their audience and offers the features that they care about. When I talked the Hasselblad about some of the practical odds and ends of doing still life and landscape work and it's more likely than not that they've thought about that. Small things like being able to turn off the timer LED entirely or set custom intervalometer profiles. There are some features that are extraordinarily deep and polished although also some that are barely functional. 1/2000 sync is something that is indispensable if you use it, but even you don't, I think that there's an argument to the X1D as one of the best landscape and studio systems that can be pushed into more casual use with some difficulty if needed.

    The thing that I don't like about the X1D II even more so than the AF is the lack of a tilt screen and no Phocus Mobile for Android. I could always use Phocus mobile but that means taking an iPad Pro out into the field, and also trying to find an iPad Pro when everyone needs one for remote learning for their kid.
     
  6. ald0s

    ald0s Facebook Friend

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    Mate if you're this far into technical perfection you should be stacking and/or bracketing anyway. Doubly so if you're shooting landscape where nothing moves quickly and you have the time. You can't have 16 stops pf DR and fabulous high ISO in 2020.

    100MP is not pointless for a studio camera, it doesn't hit diffraction until f10, oversampling is great and diffraction can take care of aliasing. Diffraction aperture limits the contrast MTF / 50% anyway, which is the most commonly cited but in real world use is meaningless. I can't see it 99% of the time and I stare at pixels for a living. Most of the stuff you like was probably shot on something we would consider rubbish, don't forget that.

    Ergonomics are personal but I find the GFX100 really comfortable once setup. Of course it's ugly unlike the X1D but it's a tool not a shelf queen.

    I do think Hasselblad has the best color science of the lot, and while everyone loves Fuji I find the x-trans sensors a touch too green and it's annoying that Adobe profiles for them are rubbish. I'm also in the camp of people that actually like Phocus, and shame on Phase for not producing a stand alone version of capture pilot.

    TLDR - If you're shooting only landscapes and can put up with operational quirks then I understand. For stuff that moves, hard pass.

    EDIT - Also, what is this rubbish about iso 64 having a DR cost? My D850 is at maximum DR (and color depth) at base 64.
     
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2020
  7. ald0s

    ald0s Facebook Friend

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    Why not Nikon or Canon btw? You could blow their respective 45/47MP sensors up to billboard size and color science notwithstanding neither of us could tell the images from the X1D, plus you'd be 10k richer and could take razor sharp pictures of kids on bikes and brick walls to your hearts content.
     
  8. Zhanming057

    Zhanming057 Friend

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    @ald0s Maximum DR is obviously always at base ISO but if you underexpose to preserve highlights, you're essentially using higher ISO levels for part of the image when recovering shadows and that is subjected to the limitations of the stronger color filters by getting more noise per stop added in post. I'm not sure if the D850 is tuned a little different but when I worked on files from the 810 I did feel like I couldn't get quite as much detail out of the shadows, although colors are lovely.

    This is all a little theoretical for online posting sizes but I like to stick the camera at base ISO and then just push the files as needed to avoid any part of the image being overexposed. That means shadows are often +2 or +3 EV to begin with and that's when the bigger sensor really shines because you can do that pull and it looks much cleaner. I could always de-noise by selection but if I don't have to do that, I'd prefer not to.

    Last time I checked Canon's sensors aren't ISO invariant and they are still about 2 stops behind sensors from Sony, if I shot an EOS R like I shoot an A7rII the files will be a mess. Maybe they've fixed that with the R5 but I'll need to test one and play with the files before I consider it a viable option. At the end of the day, if I stick with 135 I'll buy an A7r4 and keep one of my 7r2's as a backup. I might even get a pro discount on the body if I get it shipped from Sony's service center in Hong Kong.

    That's fine and all, but a little disappointing in that after 5 or so years I still can't get the output of the 645Z in a body that also has halfways decent autofocus. I'd get another 645Z but 3 pounds without the lens is too much for any camera that I'm not paid to carry around.
     
  9. ald0s

    ald0s Facebook Friend

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    The latest FF sensors push just as cleanly as the X1D / 645Z, if there is a difference we're talking 0.2 of a stop which means nothing in real life.

    Canon's sensors are in line with Sony's now, there are graphs all over the internet.

    You're willing to give up cameras that are leagues ahead in every category on the low chance you might need to use noise reduction, based on information that is anecdotal at best.

    If you ever shoot off a tripod IBIS in the latest bodies will make more difference than anything else.

    AF on the latest bodies is black magic and never misses.

    Honestly I just think you're extremely out of date on how far 35mm has come. At the end of the day no one will be able to see the difference between any of these cameras unless you're printing greater than A2. You could just bracket it on any camera released in the last 6 years and call it a day.

    You're right, this has gotten too technical, sorry SBAF.

    In other news, the X100V is probably the most complete little camera I've ever used. Svelte flippy screen and weather sealing took it from great to perfect (for me).
     
  10. Zhanming057

    Zhanming057 Friend

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    DR tests heavily depend on the method and I would much prefer to just book a demo session, get test shots and then run them through ACR to see for myself. Even DXOmark which I think is usually pretty accurate sometimes numbers that don't quite match up with my own experience with the files. Same with MF vs. 135, I know what 7r4 files look like and I can say with certainty that the 645Z/X1D ii files hold up to more abuse. The 7r4 has massively better color science but when I work on the files the envelop is pretty much exactly the same as the 7r2 on a pixel to pixel basis. The X1D files on the hand is noticeably better than the 645Z which I assume is because of either the upsampled 16 bits or just better onboard processing or maybe Pentax files meshing poorly with ACR.

    Pixel shift won't do for most landscapes and using flashes for product work. And the X1D's onboard suite of stacking and bracketing options is extensive enough that I don't think I'd ever need to tether it in the field other than for previewing the files. At the end of the day it doesn't matter since I don't mind bringing a laptop to the field which is how I shoot the 7r2 (the mobile app isn't good for much more than trigger release + timer).

    So yes, creature comforts and creature discomforts. I could probably do 100% of what I want to do with a NEX-7 but I would most definitely prefer to not do that. So even if eye AF is really good, and I know it is, I'd still want to confirm the lady's iris in the EVF with my own eyes or otherwise I'd waste even more time chimping. If that's the photo equivalent of yelling at clouds, so be it.

    I like everything about the X100 except the 35mm FL. After years with the RX1R II it still feels weird to me and I prefer 28mm. and a motivating factor for considering the X1D II is the idea of buying a Q2. Although having a travel fixed lens camera that's bigger than the ILC kind of defeats the purpose of a travel camera.
     
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2020
  11. Thad E Ginathom

    Thad E Ginathom Friend

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    Don't worry! Interesting conversation :)
     
  12. billbishere

    billbishere Facebook Friend

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    I use the Sigma MC-11.... It is one of the best for Canon. It works on any EF lens, both 3rd party and Canon proper.
     
  13. ald0s

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    DXO isn't as accurate at P2P (chart in link), the numbers there are raw DR and if you have a skewed preference it's due to color bias or "the type of noise" if you want to get into the minutiae. https://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm

    That being said I do think testing for yourself is always the best way, if only to confirm it with your own eyes. That 16bit hasselblad claim is trash though, it's a 14bit sensor and no matter how you decide to wrap it in marketing those last 2 bits are noise aka nothing. They have great color science but don't buy into that snake oil.

    If this stuff really interests you, you should be paying way more attention to your raw converter. ACR has awful profiles for lots of cameras, with Fuji being the worst offender. You should be looking at rawtherapee or DxO if low noise / high acuity is your goal. I use Capture One because I stare at it everyday for work and its good enough.

    I also prefer 28mm tbh but I just love the camera so I make do. I actually used to own a Q2 but you're right, it's quite hefty and I wanted something smaller. That sensor is generations behind though and knowing your preference for DR, it'll disappoint you.
     
  14. aamefford

    aamefford Nothing like chamberpot coffee

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    All - sorry to jump into the middle of a conversation with kind of a non-sequitur. I'm working my way back into photography after years of just point and shoot stuff with phones and superzoom cameras. My last real foray was probably 40+ years ago, in the film days with a Canon AE-1. I'm leaning heavily toward the Fuji X-T2 or T3 - the camera layouts seem the most old school analog to me, and the film simulations seem cool. Likely the X-T3 as it seems to be too great a value at $999 new, vs. $650-$700 for a T2 used. Here's just a couple of quick questions to get me started:

    1) Any photography equivalent to Audiogon / Audiomart type sites?
    2) Any photography equivalent to SBAF?
    3) Any Canon equivalent to the Fuji X-T* line (my wife has a couple of EF lenses and an old EOS body).
    4) Any starter lens comments?

    If any of this may clog the thread, I welcome PM's on the subject.

    Thanks all, your regularly scheduled programming will continue....
     
  15. Zhanming057

    Zhanming057 Friend

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    Fredmiranda.com is the big one. You don't have to sponsor to buy, but the seller will probably ask for references. Otherwise, Keh, B&H, Adorama all sell used gear. FM has a pretty robust discussion section in addition to classified, although I rarely hang out there because discussions get pretty toxic...which, of course, never happens here :)

    I am very, very partial to Sony in this price range - the point here is that just because the Fuji has retro styling doesn't mean that it's less of a digital camera. But they do have pretty good film simulations. There's a more abstract argument that getting familiar and comfortable with processing will always improve your photography more than getting a better body, and Sony is arguably more conducive to building a Lightroom library/workflow. If you want to stick to the XT-3, I'd start with the 23mm F2 and then figure out if you want longer or wider. The 18-55 isn't a bad zoom, but it kind of defeats the point of the larger sensor.

    There are a million used Canon bodies floating around. If the lenses are EF and not EF-S, I recommend a used 6D. If you want something even lighter, a 70d might be a good option.
     
  16. Thad E Ginathom

    Thad E Ginathom Friend

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    Both Sony related, but I enjoy these two forums:

    --- TalkEmount. Fairly small group of friendly regulars. There is gear talk, but it is more photos.

    --- Dyxum. Some very technical stuff, but lots and lots of truly wonderful photos. I only go there when I have time to relax, like a special visit to a gallery.

    Buying gear... Use a local-Indian forum. The more expensive the item, the more inclined I am to buy new. The savings are more, but so is the risk.
     
  17. aamefford

    aamefford Nothing like chamberpot coffee

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    Thanks gents - I’ll check out the Canon 6D and 70D and fredmiranda.

    regarding used purchasing - I bought a lot of used HF gear back when head-Fi was still a community. I’m kinda with you @Thad E Ginathom. Craigslist, BH and Adorama pricing does not deviate from new enough to really seem worth while.
     
  18. Zhanming057

    Zhanming057 Friend

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    One other source, if you use Facebook, is Facebook camera gear groups. If you can find a Fuji-specific group, that might get you what you want faster. No real verification mechanism, though.

    I should also mention DPreview, they have a sales corner, but FM gets you to the sale faster in my experience
     
  19. Syzygy

    Syzygy Friend

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    I've bought used even recently with good success from KEH (keh.com)
     
  20. zerodeefex

    zerodeefex SBAF's Imelda Marcos

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    I’m going to sell the Ricoh GRIII. What should I ask for? I might post here.
     

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