Audio Science Review Review

Discussion in 'Audio Science' started by purr1n, Aug 30, 2020.

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  1. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    Characterization of dipoles and in general, ominidirectional speakers, using anechoic conditions can easily lead to wrong conclusions. Furthermore, near-field measurements extended to far-field tend to fall flat in their face in these cases.

    I actually have a set of ominidirectional speakers. And here is how they measure using near-field measurements to far-field anechoic approximations:
    [​IMG]
    Source: https://www.soundandvision.com/cont...r-system-ht-labs-measures#4zF8IIoJLucOVwDc.97

    The nanosats are represented by the red trace, which are used in this system as surrounds.

    Well... this is what I measured for my nanosats in-room:
    mirage_nanosat_0_45_90deg.png

    As the measurements show, I don't hear shit from the speakers below 150 Hz. How I know is that I have a few favorite songs with certain percussions that magically disappear with the nanosats. This is shown also in the Sound and Vision measurements. This is not a result of the omnidirectional nature of the system, but the fact that the woofer driver is 2.5" and in a sealed enclosure. I have a sub, but crossing that high is not optimal, and some subs will not even go that high (the one packed with the old nanosats will not).

    I do also see a 3 kHz wide null maybe 5 dB down. But it does not seem like as huge as a problem as the S&V measurements would lead folk to believe. And indeed, I don't really hear substantial mid-range anomalies with the nanosats.

    More importantly, the tone is neutral. And indeed that's how I hear them. That is not what the near-field measurements extended to far-field from S&V would have me believe. Those measurements are broken, and only show that the approach they used does not represent at all how these speakers will behave in most in-room and real life situations.

    I heard these speakers in my then condo, and now in my house. They may roll off too soon in the bass. But down slanted like the S&V measurements predict, they are not. And in-room measurements support that.

    All that said, I still made my own nano-speakers covering all the way down to 70 Hz and almost 50 Hz on f6. Because those have a high excursion woofer which mates well with a relatively large port. Again, the nanosats are portless.

    What do you gain with the nanosats? Look at the response at 0, 45 and 90 degrees! It's basically the same! Even at 90 degrees. You get very expansive sound from a small speaker. And placement is a breeze (unlike some regular speakers and many dipoles).

    What I took from all of these experiences and indeed, measurements, is that the near to far field anechoic deal does not universally work.
     
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2020
  2. firedog

    firedog New

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    mistake
     
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2020
  3. firedog

    firedog New

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    The Kii can't do everything, and especially not everything at once. Sometimes there are different setups or additonal inputs needed.
     
  4. firedog

    firedog New

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    You are entitled to your opinion. Lots of people disagree, including some former ATC owners. Opinions about speaker sound are very individual - one man's "suck ass" sound is another man's "best speaker I've heard" - and both are right - for themselves.
     
  5. Thad E Ginathom

    Thad E Ginathom Friend

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    That's nice of you. Now... when did you join? To take part in just one thread?
     
  6. Cspirou

    Cspirou They call me Sparky

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    It has 4 digital inputs and one analogue input. Save that for a turntable.
     
  7. YEEEEGZ

    YEEEEGZ Almost "Made"

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    Ah, the exact phonic kink I’ve been searching for. If only I could find it. Most of them blow.
     
  8. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    I think that a "reset" in relations is in order. Short ban. Please take the time to get familiar with the site, read the rules, and then introduce yourself in the proper thread when the ban expires. Otherwise this will just end in a food fight.

    Thanks for agreeing and understanding, not agreeing but understanding, agreeing but not understanding, or not agreeing and not understanding.
     
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2020
  9. Senorx12562

    Senorx12562 Case of the mondays

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    Could be wrong, but I doubt he will be back. Not that it matters.
     
  10. Psalmanazar

    Psalmanazar Most improved member; A+

    Pyrate Slaytanic Cliff Clavin
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    very good point about mains hum inside speaker.

    upon unboxing and plugging in JBL 305 and playing back a 60hz tuned kick, I can hear the enhancement and ears behind them, the hum. It sounds like a resonant high pass filter with some modulation has been added to my kick for me. Changing to an 80hz kick with its own, real resonant high pass = gross. No wonder I thought these punch hard for their size. I bought them as the mix down emergency back up speaker for one record with a 60hz sampled kick and still had to reference porta pros With clamp lowered for balancing due to the scoops. Your JVC Flat recommendation saved my ass for making the vocals sit. Back to the krk six inchers More accurate despite their reputation and warmth
     
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2020
  11. YMO

    YMO Chief Fun Officer

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    @firedog when you come back don't start the new year in a bad note.
     
  12. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    With these type of speakers, how much hum you get really depends on your setup.

    For example, I'm using my active Mackies in my bedroom. There was hum, but very minor when connected to my TV through the analog outputs (my bedroom old Vizio TV does not have digital audio outputs). That worked fine for a while.

    Then I installed a roof antenna, and used the coax distribution in the house. I added an antenna mounted pre-amp. TV signals came happy to every screen in my house. No more ugly antennas inside the house.

    BUT, because of the pre-amp (and I tried two: Winegard and RCA), the signal from the TV to the Mackies has the mother of all hums! I bought a coax isolator to break the resulting ground loop and that fixed that problem. But even with the isolator, there is still some residual hum.

    So you see. In some cases the hum might be no big deal. In others, it may be a deal breaker. And this is quite common for all active speakers.

    My passive speakers using the old Yammy receiver has no such issues. The TV is feed the same pre-amp signal.

    EDIT: For reference, these are the isolators I bought (isolates coax from TV and attenuated hum from my speakers due to antenna pre-amp): https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07KV3M68S/

    EDIT2: Glad the flats worked out mang :)
     
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2020
  13. Psalmanazar

    Psalmanazar Most improved member; A+

    Pyrate Slaytanic Cliff Clavin
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    Yeah it depends on what outlet. I had no hum in my monitoring setup but I was plugging them into a random outlet near my fridge for that test. Their power supplies are inadequately filtered. I have heard old mackies and Yamahas and KRKs with just bad transformers though.
     
  14. Hrodulf

    Hrodulf Prohibited from acting as an MOT until year 2050

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    Sounds like grounding problems. Most of the cheapo monitors use SMPSU's which do a remarkable job of not letting mains hum through. At least the 305's use an SMPSU.

    Stuff like this is a bitch to solve right.
     
  15. Psalmanazar

    Psalmanazar Most improved member; A+

    Pyrate Slaytanic Cliff Clavin
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    It’s a build and power supply issue. KRK class ab plate amps had major durability and thermal issues stemming from the design. There were a lot of bad caps, killable components, and the infamous black goo.

    Yamaha has qc issues. Different HS8 hum and hiss differently. Some also have some slight cab resonances but nothing like JBL and Kali. I’ve used many pairs of HS8. They’re not bad but not great. They’re still more useful than a lot of much more expensive poly woofer and metal dome monitors.

    The JBL electronic issues in their actives are defective by design plate amps and crappy pa amps.
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2020
  16. dubharmonic

    dubharmonic Friend

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    Forgive me if this has been suggested before, but has SBAF considered bringing in a neutral third party to conduct double blind tests on “transparent” gear with golden-eared members? If the ASR crowd is going to stick to their guns on science, it could be fun to show that a human can reliably discern “audibly transparent” DACs from AKM and ESS. Or Magnius VS THX 789.
     
  17. nishan99

    nishan99 Friend

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    ^
    The thing is it does not take a golden ear to tell most transparent gear apart. Rapid blind switching? maybe, but it's easy to tell if you take enough time with each component, 5min each for example.
     
  18. dubharmonic

    dubharmonic Friend

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    Sure, but considering how many extremist objectivists are constantly posting that scientific measurements prove otherwise, it may help the greater community to get a solid study to build from.
     
  19. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    Again. ASR is not science oriented.

    There are plenty examples where grading is given based on subjective appreciation (whatever Amir likes that day) and bias (Topping & Revel), regardless of their own measurements, which many times are flawed due to faulty setup (wrong drivers or poor environment). Not to mention incomplete (THD+N sweeps with carefully defined parameters), and in some cases with the introduction of poorly justified set of metrics (Amir-bits). There is more, as their Maggie review showed, but let's just leave it at that.

    The fact that the site portraits itself as a beacon of science is at the center of discussion. Representing itself as such is dishonest. Most folks that raise concern about this and suggest course correction will arrogantly be meet with dismissal. That's the problem. Measurements themselves are not the problem (the non-flawed ones that is).

    Furthermore, this is not the 100% subjective site.

    In regards to blind tests. Folks here have done it. And some care more than others about them. I don't care much. And the reason is simple. If I can barely tell mosquito farts from an AKM vs an ESS solution, I say f**k it. I would march on to see the features supported by the solution, and if such features perform well. Even if a solution is awesome-sauce in one mode, it might be impractical and shit in another. That's what I care about.

    But again, some folks here are more on the fussy side of things, and will loose their shit if a solution does not render the sound of the fly that met it's end as it navigated into the mouth of a vocalist. Maybe we could do more randomly sanction blind-tests for whomever cares.
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2020
  20. penguins

    penguins Friend, formerly known as fp627

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    In charge of audio and media on probably the 2nd worst release of Windows (Vista) no less... The one where media and to some extent audio was so bad it drastically accelerated a resurgent Apple's marketing and product growth by 5-10 years of what it may have been otherwise????!!!????!!!?? I'm also going to guess he probably at least had a hand by default in the MS player (Zune was it?), HD DVD, and other product launches that failed during that time due to his position???

    In short, senior VP as MS that helped accelerate the rise of Apple, lost some formatting and product wars, etc... Probably something I'd stay silent about in Amir's position...

    Not saying I'm some super genius who could have single handedly beat Apple and launched a mountain of successful products at MS or anything... but on the flip side, just because I can't build my own car doesn't mean I don't know a bad car when I see one.
     
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