Schiit, can you make a portable/transportable DAC/AMP?

Discussion in 'IEMs and Portable Gear' started by rhythmdevils, Sep 25, 2020.

  1. Biodegraded

    Biodegraded Friend

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    Have you tried the Apple USB C to 3.5 adapter? Opinions differ on the SQ - personally I think it's fine for what it is - but for $9, a couple of them to cover the inevitable loss or breakage will be ok for your pocket in at least two senses.
     
  2. BenjaminBore

    BenjaminBore Friend

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    I can only speak for the Lightning to 3.5mm, and it sucks. It’s worse than the old iPhone hp outs. Which themselves were warm, vague, rolled-off, and muddy. Without the ability to reach adequate volume with high impedance full sized cans.

    @rhythmdevils I’d love this. I’ve wanted this sort of thing many times. Research always lead me to solutions that appeared to not be good enough and/or were overpriced. I ended up using a Fulla 2 strapped to a GO450 and a usb battery pack for awhile. It didn’t sound too bad but it was cumbersome as hell and only useable around the house. The iFi xDSD seems like it might be decent but bloody hell it’s £400, and the output power seems a bit weak. That’s not to say I wouldn’t be willing to put that money down, but it’d need to bring something to the table besides shiny paint.

    Jason Stoddard has commented on the possibility once or twice before. Unfortunately it’s ruled out due to the legal risk of having batteries exploding or burning holes in people.

    If it did happen then aside from sounding great, having some oomph, and being sanely priced. All things Schiit have proven ability in achieving. Then what I want most of all is to be able to use it without a cumbersome, overpriced, and unreliable Apple CCK. If I’m dreaming it’d be a discrete amp, with multibit to boot. Not another op-amp / DS DAC job.
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2020
  3. Metro

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    What are you using currently? I think there's few on the market because the demand is low.
     
  4. Bill-P

    Bill-P Level 42 Mad Wizard

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    Well, this market is volatile as hell. I think the chief problem would be... battery performance.

    If you have good battery life and a small form factor, then sound has to be shit. If you have good battery life and good sound, then form factor is shit. And then if you have good form factor and good sound, then... battery life is shit. And if you can somehow get good battery life, small form factor, and also good sound, then it won't be cheap.

    It's one of those "balancing act" things, I think.

    I'm certainly not a seasoned electrical engineer, but from my brief research into the topic, that's what it comes down to.

    Schiit can certainly try and jump in, but I think that's going to be a more difficult market to approach. There are probably a gazillion Chi-Fi portable DAC/amp devices at every single price point imaginable under $1000. And then there's iDSD, which seems popular with people in and out of this community, but which I have to preface: I do not like any of their devices at all.

    That's not to mention the murkiness of output standards: there's 3.5mm, then there's 3.5mm TRRS, and 2.5mm, 4.4mm, and that really weird Rubikon connector that RSA used a while back.

    And then there's the final fact that mobile devices, like the iPhone, iPad, Android, etc... that will no doubt be connected to this mythical DAC/amp, are all currently limited to a maximum of 44.1KHz or 48KHz sampling rate by default. Granted, "high res" is a sham... but I don't think too many people will be too keen on having to resample all of their music files just so they can plug in a DAC/amp. Either that or Schiit will have to start looking to hire someone to write their own music player that interfaces with the DAC unit in some special way to allow higher sampling rates, or as a last resort, start licensing deals with existing apps.

    Not to rain on the parade, but I think there are many roadblocks to having "great" audio out of an iPhone or Android phone right now. A DAP is... surprisingly, still the best option available.
     
  5. BenjaminBore

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    As Bill-P points out the questions that are most important pertain to whether there is a business case for one. Is there a market for it. Can they differentiate from current offerings.

    Portable dac/amps don’t seem as popular as they once were, and I suppose there’s some reason for that due their encumbrance. But I get the feeling these days that Schiit has enough recognition, goodwill, and ability to excite that it has a shot at creating or growing categories. Or at least seizing a sizeable portion of existing ones.

    In terms of differentiating. Well that Multibit module that goes in their modular desktop amps looks pretty small. Maybe they could fit something like that in if it were a dual board design. I’ve wondered for some time whether one could jury-rig one of those modules into a portable.
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2020
  6. BenjaminBore

    BenjaminBore Friend

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    A question for those that used to use a battery powered dac/amp. Why did you give on them?

    Hey @FlySweep IIRC you have extensive experience with these sorts of products. What’s your setup these days, and what do you think is missing from current offerings that you’d like to see?
     
  7. Elysian

    Elysian Friend

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    @lagadu Even after a decade of being bundled in smartphones and notebooks, Bluetooth somehow manages to make even USB-C look good in terms of standards and compatibility. I don't want to hijack rhythmdevils' thread but I want to rant about Bluetooth as to why physically connected DAC/AMPs are still relevant:
    • Poor latency even with aptX.
    • Grainy audio quality on every mid-fi Bleutooth audio product I've ever tried.
    • A lot of weird issues with my Windows notebooks such as when I power wireless IEMs on, then off, then on, it comes back with low-fi audio and I need to reboot my notebook and IEMs to make things normal again.
    • Inconsistent pairing with Android smartphones.
    • Signals are easily disrupted by walls, kitchen appliances, bodies, etc. I'm going to pick up the ASUS USB-BT500 to see if Bluetooth 5.0/5.1 has improved over 4.0.
    • Exceptionally poor support from Microsoft for stock Windows 10 Bluetooth drivers.
    • Inconsistency from Qualcomm in whatever direction they're taking their Bluetooth codecs next. They also can't get a decent fingerprint scanner working.
    • Audio cutting out for the first 1-2 seconds of any video or music file.
    • Lack of consistency from manufacturers supporting multi-channel Bluetooth.
    Schiit has figured out how to make great quality amps and DACs that fit into all budgets. Not only that, I'm pretty confident Schiit will be here for a long while as opposed to ephemeral Chinese Amazon vendors that give out free products for 5 star reviews. I'm sure Schiit can build something that accepts USB-C and will do great for on-the-go listening. When I'm on my portable setup I'm distracted and multitasking and don't need Jotunheim or Yggdrasil-quality audio.

    I'm not an EE but with Fast Wireless Charging 2.0, I'm pretty sure many people would be fine with using the USB-C to power the device and keep their smartphone on a charging stand or pad as long as it doesn't overheat the smartphone. Like @BenjaminBore and @robot zombie alluded to, I think $200-300 is the sweet spot for pricing given that these things obsolesce after a few years, but would consider $400-500 if it's on par with one of the better lower-end mid-fi desktop setups.

    @robot zombie I was just thinking about the G8 before you posted that and borrowed my wife's. The G8 definitely sounds better than the Note 9 and Note 20 Ultra but there's noticeable grain to the sound and it didn't sound terribly resolving, which makes me wonder why ASR gave the G7 such a good review. I didn't try comparing the G8 to my V20 but the G8 sounded colored (in a very noticeable and not good way) when I tried it with the Quad DAC alternatively enabled and disabled.

    @Biodegraded I haven't given the Apple dongle a shot, though I read a few people say they liked their Apple and Google dongles. I've had universally poor experiences with anything audio-related by Apple.

    I didn't mean to make this post for so long but I've been looking for years for a good portable DAC/AMP solution and this is still a largely unexplored area given the incredible growth in consumer audio. I think there may be a respectable market here, especially since enthusiasts would use a good DAC/AMP interchangeably with notebooks and tablets as a one-size-fits-all solution.
     
  8. robot zombie

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    Definitely has some drawbacks. It basically crosses my threshold for 'good enough' with mobile stuff. The graininess is definitely a thing. And it really isn't super-resolving, nor is the blackground very clear. The coloration is what it is. It's on the warm side, but with scooped-out lower mids and a little hump for the midbass. Rolls off a bit early on the high end. All in all, subdued if not unrefined treble. Like, instead of taming the roughness it just gets dialed back. Took a while to pick up on, but the sabre/ess birthmarks are there. A little bit of that 3-5khz shout, with a flattened section going to the upper highs, where the grain is. Probably why it pairs nice with Porta Pro's. I notice issues more easily with my 6xx's. Maybe I'm just used to it, haha. I can only say I prefer it over most other phones I've had a chance to try recently.

    I had to play around with the filters. 'Short' is awful to me. Decay and transients get squished into everything else and it's noticeably harsher on the upper mids. Everything is kind of just up in your ears. Spacial cues and reverb almost seem to disappear... there's no air. 'Sharp' is okay, but the overall presentation is more murky and diffuse. Pillowy. 'Slow' seems to have the best balance. It's not so gritty, and the microdynamics are the best of the bunch. There's more separation, without losing too much oomph. It's one of those things that has to kind of set in on you, but when you've been on one filter for a while and change it to the better one, it's like "ahhhhh..."

    It's not ideal. I'll give you that. I'd gladly give it up for a good DAC/amp. I'm with you on that price point, too. If you tell me it's $400-$500 for something on the level of say, a Schiit stack with maybe less juice and DAC performance on par with their modules, I'm on board.
     
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2020
  9. Elysian

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    You articulated what I heard much better than I could ever put into words :) I listen to compressed and not terribly well mastered music but immediately winced when I heard the grain. I tried running my UE18s out of a gamma2 I found in a storage bin yesterday (and nearly blew my ears out) and the gamma2 was two standard deviations more resolving than the G8 and that was with that Wolfson DAC! I can't believe this is what passes for good portable audio these days for technology reviewers.

    The G8 was also distractingly warm. I had trouble hearing anything over 6k and everything in that 3-5k range sounded smeared together and the soundstage was very flat, and the bass wasn't terribly punchy. I would put it on the same level as a decent pair of bluetooth headphones or IEMs. The G8 still sounded better than the N9 and N20U.

    Jason is a great businessman and I'm sure he has a very good reason why Schiit hasn't released a product in this space yet. Even if he can't share anything company-specific, it would be super interesting to hear his thoughts on portable DAC/AMP implementations and the perceived TAM.
     
  10. Metro

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    Besides the chi-fi DAC/AMPs, what do people think of the Audioquest Dragonfly series?
     
  11. Baten

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    I believe they used to be decent especially for a work laptop or space constrained set-up, but the newest Cobalt is an overpriced disappointment and I wouldn't recommend it to anybody. I'd recommend an iFi nano BL or something like that over it anytime.
     
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2020
  12. BenjaminBore

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    I used to use the Red. It is better than standard HP outs for sure. But with the Red you’re paying for the increased power output. £200 was steep for the SQ improvements. It also drained battery too much, and would cause popping sounds with the USB 2.0 CCK. The 3.0 CCK puts out more power and remedied the popping but it's really bulky.

    Unfortunately both my 2.0 CCK and Red stopped functioning due to wear, and the 3.0 would go the same way if the cable was not kept straight. I wouldn’t recommend any of it.
     
  13. jnak00

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    I use the Red and like it. It's punchy and dynamic and has enough juice to power my Aeolus, although I usually only use the Red with my IEMs. Its FR is v-shaped rather than neutral though.

    I also tried the Black when I bough the Red, and found the Red to be far superior. The Black was not much better than the headphone out on my Surface.

    I don't notice a huge impact on battery life on my Pixel 4XL.
     
  14. SineDave

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    I may be a total heretic for saying this, but I actually love the hell out of my EarStudio ES100 by Radsone. And in their case, I think Radsone is Korean (not Chinese) and actually engineers a very competent product. I've got hundreds of hours of use on my ES100 (and have a second in the car), which I connect to my Pixel 4 XL via Bluetooth. It drives Massdrop Plus UIEMs and CA Andromedas both quite well.

    The ES100 supports LDAC, has a decent amp and also has great battery life for its size.

    They also have a "wired" only product, the HUD100 that I haven't tried but may be solid: https://earstudio.store/products/hud100

    I'm open to Schiit taking on this challenge, but I wonder if they could play in the bottom end of that market and really differentiate themselves. As much as we might not want to admit it, a large part of making a good BT DAC/AMP is software - because ultimately you'll configure via app. This includes codecs, power options etc that make the ES100 so damn useful.
     
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2020
  15. Baten

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    The original engineer(s) behind the ES100 started off their own company btw, they just released a successor in all but name: https://www.qudelix.com/
     
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2020
  16. Biodegraded

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    I have a Black I use regularly, and I quite like it. For long stints on planes it's worked well for me with a variety of IEMs, not being grainy or harsh in the highs and having good battery life ( @BenjaminBore mentions this being a problem with the more powerful Red - was that with IEMs as well as full-size phones?). With the Drop JVCs it's certainly an improvement over the headphone jacks on my S4 and S8, which give everything a metallic timbre.

    I've had some issues with OTG cables with it, but they were due to the cables rather than the unit. I suspect a lot of reports of flaky behavior from these dongles are actually cable issues, likely due to bad shield terminations of the sort demonstrated by atomicbob.

    From an Android phone, USB Audio Player Pro or Neutron are a must with any of these things to avoid the resampling done by Android audio. I prefer UAPP's interface and relative simplicity, but Neutron has more options for tweaking the processing and possibly sorting out audio nasties: filters, polarity, resampling etc.
     
  17. BenjaminBore

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    @SineDave The ES100 is very impressive for it’s size and price. Just incredibly versatile. It lives in the pouch with my FDX1. Using the balanced out is a must and like this, from memory, I think it’s nearing the Fulla 2 with the FDX1. But I found the upper mid timbre fairly unpleasant, especially with the FDX1 which has a tonal emphasis there. A bit of extra EQ was enough to deal with it though.

    @Biodegraded That would have been with the HD650, and probably the TH900. I didn’t really use IEMs at the time.

    I was less experienced back then, but I wrote this a few years back. It includes the Red and Geek Out.
    https://www.superbestaudiofriends.o...iit-fulla-2-released.3439/page-17#post-157660
     
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2020
  18. Zhanming057

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    I would not be so confident. I know some of the people over at A&K and they've invested tremendously, for years, into making their firmware fluid and responsive and even with their sales (which are absolutely massive, smartphone-level numbers on $3,000 DAPs), the end experience is distinctly inferior to even budget-ish phones from big phone brands. OS level development work is hard and expensive, and if you just pull some off the shelf solution your DAP is going to both sound and handle badly.

    You could make a pretty responsive and easy to use DAP if you ditched connectivity, but these days you'd be hard pressed to sell a DAP without some sort of support for streaming and bluetooth and once you're there, you might as well put a real OS in and deal with the bugs. Hifiman tried as much, and it got them nowhere.

    My understanding with A&K is that they want to hit a certain profit margin, and using top shelf audio components plus top shelf smartphone guts will push prices beyond what they think the market can handle. I told them that I honestly don't see this being a problem, and I think that the Asian market will happily buy a $5k DAP if it sounds better than the SP2000 and runs on a Snapdragon 865+.

    But I don't think Schiit is in a position to tread those waters yet, and frankly there's no money in cheap DAPs because people will just run a smartphone plus a dongle DACamp.

    *Regarding an actual portable amp, I think that could work, but it's a dwindling market because good DAC chips are a dime a dozen these days, and if you can afford $600 for a portable amp you could probably get a WM1A or KANN and call it a day. That said, the only viable high-ish end option these days is Woo and the WA11 is a bit of a trainwreck design-wise. Xi Audio and Mass Kobo make absolutely great portable amps but they don't have anything with a built in chip (and in Masuda's case, he recommends running the newer amps, e.g. 424 and 428 on a Chord portable DAC).
     
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2020
  19. jexby

    jexby Posole Prince

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    the specs of the Qudelix-5K and the Shanling UP4 are so similar, except Qualcomm chipsets.
     
  20. jexby

    jexby Posole Prince

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    wonder if you can expand on the above, regarding the WA11? have never heard the unit. only read about the WA11 being very powerful, more suited to full size cans rather than IEMs. and some clamor about the USB-C cable needed....
     

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