SBAF DAC Talk II

Discussion in 'Digital: DACs, USB converters, decrapifiers' started by Maxx134, Jul 22, 2018.

  1. Changeling

    Changeling Tube Slut

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    Looking for a DAC/Preamp to use with active monitors (Genelec 8030 + 7050). Sold ADI-2 since I didn't need the headphone-amp part anymore (new office, no need for headphones) and before the used prices took a dive.
    Using an older lynx card (PCI) with AES out.

    So.
    Small footprint AIO DAC & Preamp with AES in (from Lynx AES-16) and XLR out (to monitors).
    Can do larger than the ADI (let's say WxHxD 360 x 100 x 230mm 10cm -ish).

    What should be on my list to audition?

    Budget is max $2500- but no need to go crazy.
     
  2. Metro

    Metro Friend

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    Were you dissatisfied with the ADI-2 in some other way? The headphone amp by itself wouldn't seem like a reason to sell it.

    I enjoy my Soekris dac1541 very much as an AIO, and it has AES in/XLR out. It has a headphone amp as well but you can ignore it.
     
  3. Changeling

    Changeling Tube Slut

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    No. I mostly listened to it through headphones with a chain of software tweaks (https://www.superbestaudiofriends.o...18-immersion-virtualizer-parameters-pdf.7691/ ) , and I think it served its purpose well for me. Then I had a hiatus with less listening in the office and A LOT of music bought (filling gaps in my collection), traveling and listening on the road and at home and in that process the office-ADI-2 was sold.

    But then I got a good opportunity to move up to bigger monitors in my office and here I am...
     
  4. haywood

    haywood Friend

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    It’s a hybrid design that uses multibit (10 bits) for part of the data and 1-bit for the rest:

    http://pdf.datasheetcatalog.com/datasheet/BurrBrown/mXuryvt.pdf

    The PCM63 based dacs are preferable but the PCM67 ones are still made by Theta so still pretty good. I’d be really hesitant about buying one now though, unless you got an amazing deal or need to scratch a particular itch as they’re quite old and there are modern designs if you want that type of sound (e.g. Bifrost 2).
     
  5. Collusion

    Collusion Friend

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    Which revision of the Genelecs? Older ones (8030A & B) or newer ones (8030C?) Asking because I've owned both and they have a slight sonic difference because of different kinds of amplifies (AB vs D), which may or may not result in better partnering with certain kind of dac.

    Anyway, all of them are pretty sensitive to sibilance, but the 8030C model has the most feisty treble and perhaps also the most resolving one too. For example, DM Convert-2 via passive Palmer Monicon preamp sounds almost too dry and sibilant of a combination for the 8030C's. With Yggdrasil, there was still a hint of this sibilance left, but the combination was still very enjoyable. 8030B on the other hand sounded very good with both dacs, althoug DM C2 is probably tonally the better match for them.

    Earlier I had a Soekris dac1541 with the 8030B's and that combination definitely sounded lean and analytical. On the other hand, it also sounded super clean and pristine with impressive background. I think in the end it will be a love or hate kind of a scenario. Don't know if it would fare better with the newer Class D Genelecs though.

    If I had to extrapolate, Holo Audio Cyan might be a good or at least adequate match for the Genelecs, but unfortunately I've not sampled it with them. Generally speaking, Cyan is slightly soft (or should I say, 'creamy') sounding dac, with wide stereo image and slightly strident highs in some situations (because of the NOS technology). Read Torq's review of Holo Audio Spring here and Cyan's review on headphones.com - you'll get a better idea). I don't personally care for it that much, I'd replace it with a (Mass)Drop Airist R-2R any day (with some caveats).

    Unfortunately, those two are the only dacs I've got experience with and that fulfill your requirements. IMHO in the end you need to make a compromise sonically or rethink your requirements (drop AES/EBU input or allow separates).
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2020
  6. Pharmaboy

    Pharmaboy Friend

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    I've never heard any Genelecs. Have had 3 prs of powered monitors, but nothing on that level of design & build.

    Re DACs, I just read a rave review of Kitsane/Holo's new mega-DAC, the "May" (bizarre name). A true rave, and the reviewer is someone I've read for years, met at shows & trust (Herb Reichert). He has heard DACs that cost 4-5X as much as the May, and thinks this is the new big-cheese DAC.

    Luckily for me, I can neither afford its $3.5K-$5K price or fit its giant, 2-box design in my space constrained desktop. So I won't have to dump my really fine-sounding NOS DAC (MHDT Labs Orchid w/NOS tube). Still, would love to hear this thing. If we ever have a CanJam again in NYC, maybe I'll do that.
     
  7. Psalmanazar

    Psalmanazar Most improved member; A+

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    Don’t blame any DAC for the crappy metal tweeter. Everything anywhere close to neutral will sound like that with it. If you want to solve the treble problem, ditch Genelecs.
     
  8. GoodEnoughGear

    GoodEnoughGear Evil Dr. Shultz‎

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    I have a pair of 8030B + 7050B sub fed by DAC1541 so I can comment on that specific combo.

    Uncompensated it is analytical and can aggravate sibilance as mentioned, and also as mentioned it has a characteristic pristine sound along with articulate bass and excellent timbre (imo). In my case I developed an EQ compensation curve using Sonarworks for my room which I then duplicated in DMG Equilibrium, and I also run a digital VST plugin to warm up the sound (in this case SPL TwinTube). That combination does the magic for me, and I like tweaking with (good) DSP products as it gives me a world of flexibility to play without buying more gear.

    I have run the Gennies off of Gungnir DS as well for an extended period, and did not need to resort to any warming or fattening DSP in that case.

    I really like DAC1541 despite it's lean tendency, and I'm very happy with it. That said, for a simpler solution I think Bifrost 2 would be just the ticket from all I have read. Given my lack of qualms with digital fuckery, I'd just run Bifrost 2 with digital volume control in JRiver and adjust the Gennies input trim to ensure you're digitally attenuating as little as possible which will be lossless. Use JRemote which works great as a remote.

    Just my 2c.
     
  9. JeremiahS

    JeremiahS Almost "Made"

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    Is Bifrost 2 sound as warm as Gungnir Multibit Gen 1?
     
  10. Scubadude

    Scubadude Almost "Made"

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    About two years ago I bought a DS Pro Progeny "Version A" (upgraded algorithm with dither and matched discrete output stage) ... unboxed but in beautiful condition. This is the single-ended version of the Prime II, as far as I can tell there are no other differences, and fro memory they sound virtually identical.

    At the time I had no good reason to buy it other than I could never afford Theta as a 90's student and this one showed up at a very keen price. When I bought it, it had depreciated from the original $1000 1994-pricetag to the equivalent of around 100 2018-dollars. Then the hunt began to assemble a suitable period system around it. I found a pair of Acoustic Energy AE1's and Plinius 8150, and this became my lounge system.

    Of course, the Theta only accepts SPDIF signals, so I wired in a Nuprime uDSD as a USB bridge, a role which it does performs quite satisfactorily. This arrangement also allows to A-B between the Progeny and uDSD at the flick of a switch. It seems that part of the Version A mods was to reduce the output voltage of the Progeny from 4V to 2V, because the output levels are perceived as identical.

    I have always maintained that DAC should be capitalized as dAC rather than DaC, in other words, the analog power supply and section is more critical than the actual conversion from digital to analog. Alternating between the Theta and Nuprime underlines this fact. Although they had identical purchase costs to me, the one is former (entry-level) high-end, the other a bus-powered budget-friendly device. And the Theta class shines through. It has a warm vintage character (probably because the better digital products of the time wanted to shed the "bright digital" epitaph in search of the analog-sounding ideal. I wouldn't be surprised if Theta used that Motorola microprocessor to do a bit of EQ tailoring to achieve just that. The old Theta is comparatively lacking in detail and outright dynamics against newer tech, but has an undeniable weight and tonal depth throughout the frequency range. And of course, there is the famous Moffat bass, which allows the AE1's to work a treat without a subwoofer in my lounge. In A-B listening, several listeners preferred the Theta's sound across a range of genres without exception.

    If like me, you are looking for a fine-sounding vintage piece, the Prime II will do the job admirably. But it is outperformed by higher-end period models from Theta, Wadia, Sonic Frontiers, etc. and most definitely by most modern DACs above bargain-basement level. But if you are chasing the tippy top, this is not it.
     
  11. Azimuth

    Azimuth FKA rtaylor76, Friend

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    ^ For reference, the Theta Progeny and DS Pro Prime II used PCM67 chips. The Progeny with just one and the DS Pro Prime with two chips for full balanced.

    The PCM67 is of course a hybrid stereo chip. Not quite the sought after PCM63, but a few other Theta designs used this chip such as the Chroma 396, Cobalt 307, and Pro Basic II.
     
  12. wormcycle

    wormcycle Friend

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    I finally got miniDSP SHD. It will be used with Adam A7X, and subwoofers, as a streamer, preamp and the DAC. Not sure if iSHD belongs to this thread but could not find better place.
    In 1 day of experimenting with SHD and my hopeless living room, with simple high and low pass filter I did accomplish more than in 20 days of playing with EQ, monitor controls, and subs controls. Even before I even touched Dirac.
    And however inept were my first measurements with Dirac, I can still hear improvements in the stereo image and bass control after I loaded the filters. Actually the stereo image is probably the easiest to hear and pretty spectacular. Dirac filters can be turned on/off with remote and when you turn it on it is like a shift in the image, everything suddenly is in the right place and focused.
    SHD uses two AKM4490, the same DAC chip as the older version of RME ADI-2, and I was a bit concerned that miniDSP DAC implementation could be a bit disappointing after spending a lot of time with RME ADI-2. Without Dirac the SHD DAC treble sounds a bit less pleasant that RME ADI-2 but it could be my EQ on RME. But the Dirac filters fixed that and also the Adam A7X ribbon twitters are a bit less present.

    But now I am facing a dilemma which DAC, RME ADI-2 or Bryston BDA-2 should I keep in my main setup: BHA-1, HEKv2 and HD800S. I am inclined to keep BDA-2 for synergy with BHA-1, and its digital inputs, on the other hand I really like RME ADI-2 features. If you have opinion on that please help.
     
  13. uncola

    uncola Friend

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    Long story short do audio-gd r2r dacs still suck?

    are there dacs decent now that they are FPGA software controlled or is this quote still true?
    "Audio-GD will never be able to make a great DAC until they redo their output stages and maybe their power supply. Don't let their weight, the unnecessarily complex power filtering, mention of their use of Never caps (never heard of those), and their x3 R-core transformers fool you. The designs are incredibly unoriginal."

    edited for brevity
     
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2020
  14. Baten

    Baten Friend

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    Doubtful they'll ever change. I'd highly recommend spending your money on more worthwhile gear.
     
  15. uncola

    uncola Friend

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    That's what I thought, ok scratch that off the list.
     
  16. Pharmaboy

    Pharmaboy Friend

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    I've had 3 Audio GD DACs (DAC-19, currently in my side system; NOS 19, sold; and the DAC in the 15.32 AIO, sold). None suck(ed), though the 15.32's delta-sigma DAC had the usual d-s nasties in the usual quantities.

    I listen to the DAC-19 fairly often, and on reasonably resolving headphones. It sounds totally fine to me.

    The worst thing I could say about multibit & NOS DACs in general (including my MHDT Labs Orchid in main system) is that their soundstaging is not as wide & deep as many d-s DACs'. But in a nearfield desktop system, the capability to appreciate soundstage is limited to begin with. They also aren't quite as "resolving" or conspicuously "neutral" as some d-s DACs, though IMO those qualities are often fictional, not sounding much like real resolution or neutrality as heard in live music in a real space.

    I gravitated to multibit & NOS DACs 3-4 years ago to get away from the flaws of delta-sigma DACs (I've had a few). To my ears, d-s DACs tend to have exaggerated transients; abnormally "dry" bass w/little ambience; at-times edgy/brittle upper midrange; and the bodies of notes seem thin/insubstantial. All these flaws either disappeared or were greatly reduced with any of the multibit & NOS DACs I've heard, so IMO they = mission accomplished.
     
  17. A Child of the Jago

    A Child of the Jago Facebook Friend

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    I have an opportunity to buy a Theta Gen V - in spite of reading almost everything I can find about this including @purr1n's original Changstar thread and his old Head-Fi thread and as much as I can find here I have a few questions if any of you can chime in:
    • How do you identify a V versus a VA (I believe it's a sticker on the back centre which says 'Type A' but not sure)?
    • Marv bundles both these DACs as class 'E' on the Head-Fi thread - is there much difference between the two sonically - is one preferred over another?
    • My chain will be Pi2AES -> Theta Gen V -> ECP DSHA-3F/EC Black Widow 2 -> Verite Open - can anyone comment on any synergy here (on either amp)?
    • Are there any significant pitfalls I need to be aware of purchasing a Gen V (barring its age and possible maintenance) - what do I need to look out for?
    I prefer a warmish, forgiving, bassy, full-bodied sound (NOS-esque) - the other DACs I'm seriously thinking about are the Pavane and the Sonic Frontiers SFD-1 Mk-2.
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2020
  18. dark_energy

    dark_energy Friend

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    Your personal exp matters the most. Not sure about the difference between Theta Gen5 vs Gen5A. Look at the reviews and just get Theta or SFD1Mk2 (as reviewed).

    I liked SFD1 Mk2 and I imagine with a good source this might still be one of the most enjoyable DACs out there. I think SFD1 Mk2 might be perfect for you plus it has immensely good dynamics.
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2020
  19. uncola

    uncola Friend

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    I recently A/B tested the two dacs I have in-house right now.. oppo sonica dac ($800) with extensive mods ($800 more) and allo revolution dac with external linear power supply. and the little allo dac is amazingly good, it kicks the oppo's butt. I even tried it as a headphone amp and it seems to work super well. I think because it has 7 farads of supercaps inside. If you guys are in the market for a $250 dac and already have a 5V external power supply I highly recommend you give it a try
     
  20. JeremiahS

    JeremiahS Almost "Made"

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    I could use a bit of advice from more experienced members. I want to try a multibit DAC but it has been hard to find a local unit that is available for audition. I think the one that I liked the most is a heavily modified Parasound 1100HD with cetoole discrete analogue stage but unfortunately the unit is not for sale.

    So now I have a chance for 2 different DACs... One is a Sonic Frontier SFD-2 but it's not the MK2 version (so no AES input) and the owner wants about USD 1,500 for it since it's mint condition. The other is a Schiit Gungnir Multibit 1st gen at a lower price, this one I tried before and I find it to sound a bit too warm for my taste but otherwise it has great resolution and details.

    Which one do you guys think is the more sensible purchase? Unfortunately the SFD-2 reside in a different island so I cannot try it myself.

    As always thanks in advance.
     

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