Concern for the future of affordable high-end audio, or whats left of it...

Discussion in 'General Audio Discussion' started by Ruined, Aug 1, 2020.

  1. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    Be careful what you wish for, especially if the moar ends up as class A'. Continuity still isn't that much more efficient.
     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2020
  2. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    There's more good stuff at decent prices. Vendors which have managed to stay around are getting it, improving their sound, and making stuff at prices normal people can afford. I've got my eye on Burson and Heed. Maybe they will pan out. Maybe they won't. It's up to us to separate the wheat from the chaff at the Head-Fi farm.
     
  3. Psalmanazar

    Psalmanazar Most improved member; A+

    Pyrate Slaytanic Cliff Clavin
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    We have to remember that only the good stuff survives. Nobody bothered to maintain the bad stuff or the fragile, impossible to maintain pcb stuff. It all died. There is now more good stuff than ever but also people saying modern mediocre stuff is better than the best stuff from 30-40 years ago because of lines on a graph. That’s just a lie. Warm Audio and AliExpress are not going hang with the cost no object back then Japanese hifi, Urei, and Neve.
     
  4. RobS

    RobS RobS? More like RobDiarrhea.

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    If that was true, we wouldn't have such difficulty finding good amplifiers today. Today's market is flooded with much more cheap crap. And good discrete analog designers are becoming even more scarce. Nelson Pass ain't gonna be around forever.
     
  5. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    All that THX and Topping stuff, even the high-end Topping stuff, will end up in a landfill in two years. Select Schiit will end up as gifts to friends, neighbors, co-workers, and kids. (Here, want a free Vali headamp? What's that? OMFG my crappy headphone sounds so awesome now.)

    Warm Audio. LOL. I'd rather cough up two-hundred more to get a Neumann that I can pass on to future generations.

    It was hard finding good amplifiers back in the day too. Unless you just wanted to get the ADCOM that ever other entry-level audiophile owned. There is stuff out there, just haven't gotten to it yet. The contributions are going good. We will have a bigger warchest to try new things.
     
  6. Psalmanazar

    Psalmanazar Most improved member; A+

    Pyrate Slaytanic Cliff Clavin
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    You’re just making shit up at this point. Cheap class d kicks the shit out of AVRs made with jokey in the 80s ics or nasty old tube gear that needs more service than a Jaguar.
     
  7. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    Yup. I'll take a T-amp over almost any post 70s Sony Receiver.
     
  8. Psalmanazar

    Psalmanazar Most improved member; A+

    Pyrate Slaytanic Cliff Clavin
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    Those Adcoms are awesome modded. Most of them are still kicking around. The mk1s can be modded to be better than Pass’s original designs. They used good transistors and power supplies. You can’t mod a THX amp or Benchmark to be good. You can’t even pair it right like a Bryston or McIntosh.
     
  9. RobS

    RobS RobS? More like RobDiarrhea.

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    Your ADCOM was released in what year...1985. So again tough finding good amps today.

    And f**k Class D. If you want to murder the life out of your music, have at it.

    You not liking the MOSFET sound certainly limits your options ;)
     
  10. k4rstar

    k4rstar Britney fan club president

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    speaking of affordable high-end

    serious suggestion for Merv review and loaner program:
    https://www.akitika.com/GT102.html

    maybe can convince dan @ akitika for a loaner unit, he is very responsive, but an assembled and tested one is $500

    edit: i emailed dan
     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2020
  11. Psalmanazar

    Psalmanazar Most improved member; A+

    Pyrate Slaytanic Cliff Clavin
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    The Adcoms were over a thousand dollars in good 1980s money and that was already cost reused. The cost reduction made them distorted and ultra warmed over beneath the upper bass. The amps would be around 3000 today with inflation, maybe 2500 with direct sale or pro dealer ship.

    For that cost now, you can get the ultra beefy ATC P2 Pro NEW or a used Pass Labs or Bryston SST to pair appropriately. The Adcom 555 is still made and under 1500 new.
     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2020
  12. Ruined

    Ruined HD700 ruined my ear holes

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    You know it was funny, back in the day by accident I stumbled upon a really good huge amp at reasonable price - the RB1090. Rotel wasn't particularly known for designing huge amps that sounded good but this one best others in its class. I still use it today! Sometimes you just gotta try stuff and hope for the best

    Rotel just put out a new ultra high end line , I wonder how it sounds? Too much$$$ anyhow
     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2020
  13. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    Today's ADCOM is Schiit Vidar (different sound).

    As far as finding good power amps, I am unsure if I can truly say it's hard. The thing is, I have not really tried because I have all the amps I need for my applications.

    The two current production amps I explored, sold at Audio Advisor with one being a piece of shit and the other being not bad - that's not trying.

    I'd say it's less a matter of not liking MOSFET, but rather I need amps that do well under the first watt. This is what limits my options. All I am going to do is piss people off or hurt people's feelings because most power amps are going to be better after the first watt. I don't nor will ever own a speaker that is less than 94db SPL / 1W efficient (exception being desktop use). Already done that for ten years. Got the old cabs in my garage to prove it.
     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2020
  14. Ruined

    Ruined HD700 ruined my ear holes

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    How about a 90s Sony receiver paired with 90s Pioneer bookshelfs? Now you're playing with power!
     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2020
  15. Josh83

    Josh83 Friend

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    Yeah, as an old Millennial this rings true. While ASR wasn’t around (thankfully) when I got started on my journey, I desperately wanted to believe that a $100 DAC was the best there was, largely because that’s the best I could afford at the time. But as I got older, heard more stuff, had more disposable income, that all changed.

    Lots of people just don’t know what’s out there, even if they’re interested in music. I’ve turned on quite a few music fanatic friends who’d never thought in terms of “hi-fi” by cajoling them into getting the HD6XX and a Magni. Even if you’re at the point where you have the disposable income, $300 can seem like a lot to spend on audio because everyone’s out there wearing the free earbuds they got with their phone. But as soon as they hear the difference, they start asking about DACs, better amps, and they’re on their way.

    Product-wise, I think this is pretty much a golden age of hi-fi audio. Yeah, the summit-fi prices are going up, but there’s tons of affordable good stuff. Plus, a lot of the summit-fi is either small-batch, bulletproof, artisanal stuff like the Verite, which hold their value, or things that can be had way, way cheaper on the used or grey market.
     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2020
  16. Deep Funk

    Deep Funk Deep thoughts - Friend

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    I generally do not mingle in these discussions. For the coming time I am not focused on building a nice big audio-system because I do not have the space.

    If I were to look around for value-for-money gear:
    • Behringer makes good components that can surprise you (SRC2496 and DEQ2496 in particular).
    • European and Japanese pre-amplifiers from the 70ties and early 80ties (especially Sony and Philips/Marantz) can be worth checking out, the short age between analogue and full on digital has some good audio gear.
    • Cheap and light turntables from the 70ties and 80ties: go belt-drive, easy to take apart and easy to modify/improve without paying the hipster premium price.
    • Any good CD-transport/player with a reliable Philips CDM-mechanism (Sony has them too, Philips and Sony were kind of friends when it came to sharing parts) and go for the better ones of their times (better and durable plastics).
    • Independent manufacturers (with a good reputation mind you) can offer serious value for money.

    You can be as pessimistic or optimistic as you like. When you know what you want and where to look you can build that audio system you want.
     
  17. Thad E Ginathom

    Thad E Ginathom Friend

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    Deleted much of what I wrote in my from the last century post, because I thought "Who the hell wants to know what I was buying back then!" So I'm glad you drew attention to this. @purr1n says that NAD stuff we thought was wonderful back then sucks today. I don't know. But those days were the dawn of affordable audio. Previously, you were either rich or you had a music centre. Or even the old radiogram!

    Affordable. Didn't say cheap. My first (went to live by myself, not with other people and their audio systems) cost a large proportion of a month's salary. I now regret that I gave it all away, although it was in need of several repairs.
     
  18. Ruined

    Ruined HD700 ruined my ear holes

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    I guess it helps that 20 or so years ago that I consider the "hifi heyday" I worked @ a retail store (both selling 2ch gear and doing home theater installs at homes), and got some pretty sweet manuf discounts. Now virtually the exact same stuff I sold back then (i.e. Parasound amps for instance, near identical John Curl designs from 20yr ago except they added balanced outs and doubled+ the price) just stings extra hard since the price is like double AND I no longer get the discount lol.

    BTW on the topic of Parasound, I have their HCA2205A 5ch amp. It came with a 10yr warranty. about 9.5 years after purchase life the 12v trigger relay died. They repaired it for free and paid shipping both ways. I was def impressed. Other than that failure all of the hifi gear I bought back then is still fully operational.
     
  19. JohnBooty

    JohnBooty New

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    The biggest problem is that audio has lost its place as a flagship entertainment option for very natural reasons. It used to be the only game in town. Then came TV. And home video. And video games. And the internet, and so on.

    A secondary reason is that people also have less living space in a lot of cases. A lot of young dudes can't afford their own apartments, let alone their own homes. There are some fine compact hi-fi options, but the sort of hi-fi systems that inspire you really do require some space.

    So, even if the industry catering to audio enthusiasts did everything right... not that it did... but even if it did, it would have found itself relegated to something of niche status.

    Particularly the affordable end. 18-24 year olds who only have $500 to spend for an entertainment device? Ninety nine times out of a hundred, they're picking a game console. The only folks spending money on hi-fi are the ones able to afford it as a second or third or fourth entertainment option.

    Luckily? Well, it seems Schiit and a few other internet-direct companies are doing well. The affordable market has irreversibly shrunk, but the massive efficiency gains of the direct business model will definitely support the current situation for quite a long time.
     
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2020
  20. JohnBooty

    JohnBooty New

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    Just curious. Why do you consider circa 2000 to be the heyday of hi-fi?

    Especially as far as analog components are concerned, I thought most folks would pick the 70s, 80s, early 90s.

    But I don't have a horse in the race. I always had an interest in sound but was not seriously into the hobby until much later so please don't read this as me disputing your opinion!
     

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