SBAF DAC Talk II

Discussion in 'Digital: DACs, USB converters, decrapifiers' started by Maxx134, Jul 22, 2018.

  1. uncola

    uncola Friend

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    if you're in singapore can you audition a denafrips ares 2?
     
  2. Pharmaboy

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    +1 on the denafrips ares 2.

    You could also spring for the non-oversampling (NOS) multibit DAC I have and like, the MHDT Labs Orchid (they have a distributor in China, which might ship to you):

    http://www.mhdtlab.com/Orchid.htm

    Or you could go the used route. This is a multibit DAC I have and like a lot (Audio GD DAC-19). The model to get is the "10th anniversary edition." If you check used in your country & those nearby, I'll bet you find one for the equivalent of ~500 USD.
     
  3. JeremiahS

    JeremiahS Almost "Made"

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    @uncola @Pharmaboy

    Thanks for the heads up for the Ares II DAC, I think it's available for audition in my town. I'm stuck in Indonesia at the moment because of Covid-19 travel restrictions.
     
  4. Pharmaboy

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    Indonesia may well be a safer place than the U.S. (the virus is berserk here).

    You're welcome. Ares II has a dedicated threat on "the other headphone website." And it was just reviewed in STEREOPHILE (longtime high-end audio mag) by a reviewer I trust & follow (met & talked w/him at NYC CanJam last year).

    https://www.stereophile.com/content/gramophone-dreams-40-denafrips-terminator-ares-ii

    Not sure if you're into audio enough to "read between the lines" of a review like this. STEREOPHILE is into VERY expensive, big, flashy audio gear of all types. It's nothing for them to recommend DACs costing as much as a new car. Herb Reichert is more down-to-earth than that--but here he compares the TOTL Denafrips DAC, the threateningly-named "Terminator," to Denafrips least expensive DAC, the Ares II (that's an intelligent approach IMHO). Naturally the Terminator proves better (he lists all the reasons why). But he also praises the Ares II for greatly over-performing at its price-point, which frankly is well below STEREOPHILE's typical interest level.

    My takeaway is unless you're one of the few wealthy persons that can compare the Ares II to the most expensive DACs on earth--you'll probably like the Ares II a lot.

    PS: My DACs are also in the <$1K level (that's where I live)--and I like them a lot.
     
  5. JeremiahS

    JeremiahS Almost "Made"

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    Thanks for the article, @Pharmaboy. I am looking at around 1K USD price point too. There is a Sonic Frontiers SFD-2 for sale around this price but in a different city so I am a bit afraid to blind buy because my experience that R2R DACs can sound all over the place.
     
  6. Pharmaboy

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    I find that a bit weird, but clearly it's true.

    Last year I got interested in a couple DACs (multibit/R2R Soekris 1541 & NOS multibit/MHDT Labs Pagoda)--but then got less interested after reading too many comments about them both being borderline bright ("accurate," "neutral" = code for bright). That was especially weird, as the Pagoda uses the legendary PM1704 chip. I own or owned 2 Audio GD DACs that use the PM1704 (NOS 19; DAC-19) and they're the opposite of bright.

    I suppose the eternal truth of DACs (which tends to be obscured a bit in talking about R2R/NOS designs) is that the chip/processing scheme used is just one ingredient in the overall sonics: equally important are the input section, output section, and P.S.
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2020
  7. bixby

    bixby Friend

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    Heard a really nice sounding dac today. This was not in a comparison, but in a familiar setup to me. Totally unobtanium for me, but really impressive sounding. Of course it was with my friends new speakers and his superb 2A3 Monoblocks.

    Audio Research Dac -9

    Anyone else ever hear this dac? Any comparisons to well known dacs like Yggdrasil, just curious.
     
  8. JeremiahS

    JeremiahS Almost "Made"

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    Hmm... Is this the DAC you have?

    http://www.audio-gd.com/Master/DAC1920/DAC1920EN.htm

    Actually a friend own the flagship DAC the Master 7 and it actually sounds really nice although it looks ugly. I remember it's in the same performance level as the Schiit Yggdrasil.
     
  9. Pharmaboy

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    Very interesting. Though the PCM1704 chips have been DQ'd for years, apparently Kingwa, head of Audio GD, squirreled away enough inventory to do this final upgrade of my DAC-19, known as 10th edition (he calls it 11th edition on the linked page--no idea why). Anyway, this DAC-19.20 appears to be the best & final version of the DAC-19.

    If I didn't already own & like the DAC-19/10th edition, I'd get this, no questions asked. I like the sound of AGD DACs.

    And yes, the combo DAC/HPamp/preamp models like Master 7 (a number of others) are much liked here & elsewhere for their sonics, though not for appearance (the thing is huge).

    I own/owned various AGD boxes (NOS 19; DAC-19; SA-32SE amp/preamp; NFB 15.32 DAC/amp/preamp). I was an Audio GD fanboy before discovering Cavalli & Violectric/Lake People.
     
  10. Pharmaboy

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    A couple things I forgot to mention in reply above:
    1. Audio GD DACs have gotten more neutral/less warm over the past 5+ years. Part of it is probably due to the more accurate output-shaping FPGA built-into newer DACs. I believe there remain internal jumper settings that can make the DAC warmer or less warm if desire; and
    2. The NOS/OS setting on older DACs like my DAC-19/10th anniversary were infamous for not working well. People who tried the NOS mode often had channel imbalance issues. I suspect this has been fixed in the 19.20 edition.
      • I consider the DAC-19 platform to be a multibit design first, NOS secondary (if it works).
      • If you're crazy for NOS, buy one designed NOS from the start. But if you want to try NOS as an option, the DAC-19.20 probably will do that well.
    So if you're still looking for a DAC, this might be a candidate.
     
  11. Prydz

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    I'm getting a Whammy this week, and need a DAC. My original plan was to get a Modi 3, or Bifrost 2 (if used, cheaper price). "Local" dealer has a demo Bifrost multibit which I might get for a good price. He was going to check if it was the Bifrost 2 or not. Other then that there's also a Denafrips for sale. Other options I should consider?

    EDIT: I just got a reply that its a OG Bifrost Multibit. No Bifrost 2.
     
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2020
  12. RedFuneral

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    I'm looking to get back into an external DAC after a series of purchases that weren't quite what I was looking for. I want something with a more relaxed laid-back sound with strong bloom/decay.
    The Metrum Flint has so far been the closest to what I'm searching for; for anyone familiar with the Metrum sound have you found anything similarly relaxed with less of the density/warmth R2R DACs tend to bring. I've already tried a few cheaper 'velvet sound' DACs and found the bass more muddy than bloomy(understanding the difference between the two is what's been holding me up. I'm not 100% that bloom is a DAC trait or if I'd be better served swapping other equipment.)
     
  13. Pharmaboy

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    Never heard of the Flint 'til this post (thanks!). Turns out there's an SABF thread for it:
    https://www.superbestaudiofriends.o...metrum-acoustics-new-baby-dac-the-flint.6695/

    2 DACs I see routinely described as relatively neutral/revealing for multibit or NOS are the entry level Soekris; and the MHDT Labs Pagoda.

    SABF thread/Soekris (might be affordable new):
    https://www.superbestaudiofriends.o...amp-stream-of-consciousness-impressions.4791/

    Pagoda (new the SE version is ~1450...maybe pick one up F.S.)
    https://www.tnt-audio.com/sorgenti/mhdt_pagoda_e.html
     
  14. RedFuneral

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    I actually owned the entry level 1321 from Soekris a few years back, I've been thinking of re-acquiring it. I think my impression of it having too much body was due to the amp I owned at the time.

    MHDT I've never seriously looked into as they generally fall into four figure prices. Do they generally have an acceptable USB input or would I need to factor a DD converted into the budget?
     
  15. Pharmaboy

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    I have an MHDT DAC (the Orchid w/tube buffer). I actually never bothered with the USB input, as I've always used a SPDIF converter in that system. But in all my reading about the Orchid, I never saw any complaints about the sound of the USB input.

    The Orchid is <$1K, but you might not like that NOS sound. It's musical as hell, not even trying for pure neutrality...
     
  16. penguins

    penguins Friend, formerly known as fp627

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    For those who have heard the various MSB DACs before - are these ORFAS-ville or are they legitimately worth it?

    Mentioned in my Bricasti M3 thread - I'm considering the "cheapest" MSB DAC (MSB Discrete) but it's going to be a little bit of work/effort to find one to listen to... that and even used, it's still expensive.
     
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2020
  17. toddrhodes

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    I've made a few too many changes at once to really give a full review/impressions of the Benchmark DAC3L I've been using for about a week but, in the context of this changed system - I am really enjoying it. I had a DM CV-2 and wouldn't have parted with it but fitting it into my system was a bit more klugey than I really wanted, plus - I wanted to try something new.

    Using it as a DAC and line stage with home theater bypass, the DAC3L is surpassing my expectations. I honestly thought I'd wind up finding it fatiguing like I have most other ESS Sabre DACs but honestly, it's got no edge to it, no glare or otherwise offensive trait. In fact, it really doesn't *have* many traits. At least not so far as I can find comparing it to the CV-2 and going off my memory of the Yggdrasil A2. I would compare it most closely with Yggdrasil but with just a bit more bite in the midrange, a little more forward but never overly so.

    But like I said, I made a lot of changes recently - speakers, turned my room 90 degrees, and then trading out the preamp and some other boxes to make CV-2 work - it's hard to put this all on the DAC3L. I also am playing with HQPlayer via Roon into my Pi2AES (which I absolutely adore).

    But my expectation bias for how I thought the DAC3 might sound has so far been thoroughly disproven, which is nice.

    Next thing I plan on doing is getting a Freya+ as the preamp section of the DAC3L is a bit of a throw-in and the volume selection is... strange. I don't mind it, and it has some neat features but I don't think this way of doing things is sustainable.
     
  18. fastfwd

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    I have a DAC3 as well -- the HGC model, although I don't use the headphone amp that differentiates it from the DAC3 L -- and I also like it a lot. I'm curious, though... I use mine as both a DAC and preamp for my two-channel system, and I haven't had any issues with its performance. What specifically do you find strange about the preamp functionality?
     
  19. toddrhodes

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    The volume leveling aspect of it is what I still haven't adjusted to. It's purely ergonomical - nothing sound-related. But when I switch inputs (which I also just haven't totally adapted to, from the front panel), I think the preamp is remembering the last volume setting? And so I'll go to turn it down or up, and it won't have finished its last step and it'll "undo" the change I made.

    It's just different. Strange was a little harsh for a description of it.

    But I'm anxious to see if a Freya+ adds anything to the mix with it.
     
  20. Collusion

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    Why, yes - I've owned an MSB dac before and it was the Signature IV+, which was succeeded by Signature V and ultimately replaced by the newer generation Premier Dac. My unit came with the Signature power base and the default clock option. Here it is (or was):

    msb_front.jpg

    In short: ORFAS level price with mid-fi performance. I sold this to a guy, who still has it in his (ORFAS) setup with Kef Blade speakers and Ayre AX-5 Twenty amplifier. Has to be good because it's so expensive, right?

    Pros:
    + Timbre (also a very distinct one)
    + Good bass heft
    + Dynamics (but only at the very ends of the audible spectrum)
    + Very, very inky/clear/dark background
    + Built

    Cons:
    - Mediocre detail retrival.
    - Sometimes midrange felt outright disjointed, subdued or muddy when compared to treble/bass.
    - A little ambiguous sound stage
    - Sounded "hard" when cold (though many R-2R do), needed more than one day of warmup
    - The default USB implementation was outright bad and sounded just harsh. Don't remember how much the better ones costed, but probably more than an Yggdrasil (which is a better dac as a whole, IMHO / YMMV etc.).
    - Firmware was full of bugs. Would crash if you used the settings menu in a certain manner. How much did this thing cost again?

    Random observations or thoughts:
    * Borderline warmpoo or at least quite warm sounding
    * Maybe also a tad dark? I didn't register that much air.
    * Not that euphonic sounding, close to being analytical (though not clinical)
    * Not a neutral sounding device (result of the timbre + warmness + tonal balance)
    * Pairs well tonally with amplifiers sounding like Schiit Jotunheim (or speakers like Genelec 8030b / 1032A which I had at the time).

    Would be fun to try this at home again with my current setup sometimes. But if you weren't able to read in between the lines, no, this thing is not worth your money. Luckily I got rid of it, and even better, the new owner seems to like it more and more by the day. What do you know!

    Unfortunately I haven't heard the Signature V or the current Premier dac, or the new entry level model you were talking about. But I've home demoed the previous MSB Analog DAC (with the Analog Power Base) years ago, my reference device being at the time a (high end) Marantz AV Receiver with the 1032A Genelecs I had also later on. At that setup I did like the Analog Dac very much however and I to this day I actually think it sounded more balanced / well rounded than the Signature IV+. Tonal balance was more neutral, timbre was very similar and the midrange, at least at the time, never felt unclear. Dynamics overall were a step back, but at least I didn't register the disjointed midrange here. Detail wise it was surprisely close.

    It's already past my bedtime, so I'll continue this story tomorrow with what actually prompted me to purchase the Signature DAC IV+: The Diamond V.
     
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2020

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