ZMF New Headphones: Vérité and Aeolus

Discussion in 'Headphones' started by purr1n, Oct 3, 2018.

  1. insidious meme

    insidious meme Ambivalent Kumquat

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    At no place have I read, or heard, the word "sparkle" used as a descriptive as part of the Verite Open sound. Better off looking elsewhere, but know what you're trading off with what you liked about the Verite.
     
  2. nishan99

    nishan99 Friend

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    ^
    Does the 8khz peak count? I find it bothersome and I had to EQ it down 2.5dB. (Verite lambskin pads). Otherwise it's slightly dark tonality.
     
  3. Vtory

    Vtory Audiophile™

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    Agreed. They're not particularly more sparkling than more treble-aggressive headphones. But there are enough amount of that for me -- but note this is very subject to personal variation and highly dependent on listening habits. Thus, there can be many answers to the original question -- getting more familiar with how to fully hear out of them, picking up secondary headphones, or applying a bit EQ to dial in.
     
  4. insidious meme

    insidious meme Ambivalent Kumquat

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    They weren't "sparkly" to me. However, as both of you have mentioned, that depends on the listener.

    That said, I don't think the person with the original question should look to a verite to get any more sparkle out of it unless he wants to eq stuff, but that could possibly bring its own downsides.
     
  5. Vtory

    Vtory Audiophile™

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    Depending on the sparkle definition, pad rolling (e.g., Verite pads) can help a bit though. Not sure if it's enough to meet his expected level. I also opt out using EQ any day.. lol.
     
  6. LuckyX2

    LuckyX2 New

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    With the Oratory1990 EQ I would say my Verites have sparkle. EQ really lifted a veil from them, they sounded closed in out of the box but EQ significantly opened them up. I've tested them back to back with Utopias, a notoriously sparkly headphone and I find the Verites have ~80% of the sparkle. That's perfect actually since the Utopias are too bright.

    Seriously, try the EQ, it was night and day for me. Like listening to music with a cold, it was congested without the EQ.
     
  7. dematted

    dematted Friend

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    Does anyone else have any feedback on how Verite responds to EQ? I am very close to buying a pair, and the dip around the 3k region is my only real hesitation, as I tend to like vocals to have a bit of forwardness and presence to them (I listen to a lot of vocal-oriented indie music). Doesn't need to be quite to the level of the 6x0 series, of course, but wouldn't like vocals to be too recessed. Know this can be partially alleviated with pad rolling and all, but curious if anyone has any thoughts. Thanks!
     
  8. crenca

    crenca Friend

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    I have VC monkey pod. Using EQ best practices (wide Q, overall level down so as to prevent digital clipping, etc.) I can only bump up that 3k region about 3 db (I have settled on a 2.5 db in Roon for "normal" listening) before I hear grain and/or ringing at my normal listening levels. Reason? Maybe this explains:

    https://www.superbestaudiofriends.org/index.php?attachments/upload_2019-10-4_21-7-15-png.18126/
     
  9. dematted

    dematted Friend

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    Interesting. Thank you very much for that info - I do wonder if Verite Open responds differently than closed, though I don't know much reason why it would. Looking at harmonic distortion graphs, the Verite Open does seem to have a similar spike around 3k, though perhaps a bit less pronounced.
     
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2020
  10. crenca

    crenca Friend

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    https://www.superbestaudiofriends.org/index.php?attachments/upload_2019-10-4_21-11-14-png.18131/

    The 200 and 3k spikes are subdued compared to the closed. By the way through SS amps I have had (e.g. Asgard 3) things are worse. Through the Bachelor and the Starlett, that 3k dip as well as the "congestion" (I will call it) around 200 are mitigated and not as noticeable and I am not sure why. If I had to do SS with this VC monkey pod I would have ended up selling it.

    Edit: VC through BW2 was comparable to Asgard 3
     
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2020
  11. dematted

    dematted Friend

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    That's very interesting - I would have thought that with certain SS amps, like the Bryston BHA-1 (Which is known for having an upper-mid emphasis), the upper-mid gap would be ameliorated somewhat instead of worsened. Good to know. I will note that the Asgard 3 is known for having a very laidback tonality soft in the presence region, so that might be an exception.
     
  12. zach915m

    zach915m MOT: ZMF Headphones

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    It's possible that the tonality of the amp in a general sense combined with ones own subjective hearing and/or the EQ platform used may have as much to do with any "tizz" heard that's actually coming from the Verite open or closed when using EQ. The THD rise at 3K is there, but it's only to about .15% in an anechoic box via our audio precision system on BOTH models. I don't want to debate whether or not .15% is audible or not, that's totally up to you guys.

    The 200 hz fragment your seeing in the above posted graph is likely a limitation of the system whomever took that THD measurement on, or ambient noise, as I've never seen a blip in frequency response and/or THD on the verite driver (in that spot).

    In the below graph the solid lined is the V Closed and the Dotted line is V open.

    THD_V_Closed_OpenVerite(dotted).jpg
     
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2020
  13. crenca

    crenca Friend

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    Except that you are, which is fine because that is what we do here right? ;)

    These are not the usual CSD's @purr1n normally posts here (for reasons stated):

    https://www.superbestaudiofriends.o...f-verite-closed-review-and-measurements.8383/

    But if I am reading them right (might not be) there seems to be little evidence for ringing in that 3-4k dip on the VC, and hardly any for the VO as well. Still given the coincidence of the distortion spike with the dip, there is some objective evidence of something going on in that 3-4k region. Honest question: Is there a narrow spike in the FR here disguised as a dip?

    As far as that 200hz region specifically on the VO, purr1n's measurement appear to correlate with my subjective judgement that male voices are as clean a expected, but that female voices can sometimes come across as "congested" or "compressed".

    edit: as far as "...the EQ platform used may have as much to do with any "tizz" heard..." I normally use Roon (not sure what they use in the background - SoX maybe or something like it since they probably did not write their own), but I also hear the same when I use DMG Audio's "Equilibrium" VST plugin in JRiver, so no I don't think the EQ can be blamed...
     
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2020
  14. zach915m

    zach915m MOT: ZMF Headphones

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    There's a dip in the FR which is caused by the bump in THD (the graph I posted was THD) which is caused by the interaction of the voice coil we use with the really strong N50 magnets. Basically it's a dip that causes THD that we allowed since I found the driver to sound better with the strongest magnets VS use a driver with less strong magnets and less THD in that area. If the THD had risen higher I may have reconsidered but the THD rising to .15 was worth the transient speed in my subjective listening.
     
  15. Elnrik

    Elnrik Super Friendly

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    Someone's had too much to think.

    As much as we bash the "science" site folk for judging gear off measurements alone, some of us seem to do much the same. Just listen to them.

    (I know that probably pissed lots of people off, but it is my opinion, so...)

    FWIW, I don't like the VC through the Asgard 3. It's fantastic through the Pendant, a little less so through the T4. Listening to Rebecca Pigeon, Lita Ford, or Stevie Nicks, I hear no such congestion as suggested in your post.

    I will say that the amp matters. I imagine the SW51+ would be a good pairing.
     
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    Last edited: Nov 16, 2020
  16. crenca

    crenca Friend

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    I did, and I do regularly. I hear the female "congestion" (quoted because there is probably a better term for it). I don't recall if I read purrin's measurements thread before they arrived, but I noticed these aspects pretty quickly. I am not the only one to report this as buried in this thread are several who are looking to mitigate the 3k dip, as well as others who do not like the cup reverb sub 1k. I may be the only one to have spoken to the female vocals however.

    As I have said, both the bachelor and DNA Starlett that I have mitigate the effects. Verite pads mitigate both effects, but I agree with the person who said they turn the VC into an "ordinary" HP.
     
  17. Pharmaboy

    Pharmaboy Friend

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    I'm glad to read this. I feel my spirit revolting against measurements. I read them all the time, but here I'm tripping over them at the very moment a new silkwood V.O. is burning in and sounding awfully good. Too much cognitive dissonance for one day.
    • I've never been to an opera or symphony and praised it to a friend, saying, "It certainly measured well."

    3 related thoughts:
    1. Measurements are a tool to understand reality--not reality itself
    2. Some of the things that affect us most in music (IRL or via audio) cannot be measured--not yet, perhaps not ever
    3. And some of things that can be measured with great precision may not matter as much as the things that can't be measured
    It's possible my hearing sucks & I just can't hear the "midrange recession." Maybe it's that simple.
     
  18. fastfwd

    fastfwd Friend

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    FTFY
     
  19. perogie

    perogie Facebook Friend

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    Its there to a slight amount, but I have always been of the opinion that small tonal issues are easy to listen through if the rest of the positives of the headphone warrant it. With the VO you got the timbre, richness, staging and a high level of detail retrieval which overrides any mild recession. Caveat being I dont listen to many vocal tracks anymore, vocals make it easier for me to pick out some mid recession, but I did some critical listening to get a vibe for the VO and its not a deal breaker. Could be just the way my brain processes sound but I seem to be more accepting of strict tonality issues, I adjust to it, unless its particularly egregious. Not sure if there is much auditory science behind that as I do know some folks are a lot more particular about it.
     
  20. ChaChaRealSmooth

    ChaChaRealSmooth SBAF's Mr. Bean

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    It's all about system synergy. I don't know why we have to rehash this point so much; you can't throw together random Golden Schlong stuff and expect it to sound good.

    FWIW I agree with @Elnrik; I did not like Verite through Asgard 3. And I like both of those for what they do. Just not together.

    Measurements are more academic in nature anyhow. Yes, it's possible to use measurements to help extrapolate what you'll like (and I'd actually highly advise listeners to do this), but ultimately it's more or less fun to look at. More important is understanding how your tendencies line up with certain measurements with certain rigs (remember, measurements are not comparable across different rigs).

    Certain things bother some people more than others. Heck, I question what I'm hearing all the time. My hearing is below average for my age and I'm not 30 yet.

    At any rate, the fact that we're even talking about the Verite's flaws actually validates its Golden Schlong. Look at the Utopia; it's also very very good, and we all acknowledge the headstage is small and it has tonality issues for some. Again, all about synergy.
     
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2020

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