Denon AH-D5200 Discussion and Impressions

Discussion in 'Headphones' started by monacelli, Dec 5, 2020.

  1. monacelli

    monacelli Friend

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    Denon AH-D5200

    This thread is for discussion and impressions of the AH-D5200, a new-ish biodynamic driver headphone from Denon. It was released in late 2018, but hasn't been discussed much on SBAF (perhaps because of their high retail price of ~$700). The AH-D5200 is the successor to the D5000, which makes it a close cousin to the Fostex TH-X00 and the Emu Teak. In the past, Foster was the OEM supplier for the D5000 drivers, but I'm not sure what the situation is for the D5200. The new generation of Denon dynamic cans includes the D7200 at $999 and the D9200 at $1599, the latter of which is presumably a competitor to the Fostex TH900. So why start a D5200 thread now? Denon recently put these on sale for Black Friday at the bargain price of $210. The sale lasted only a few hours. I had been kicking around the idea of buying an Emu Teak to have a decent closed back on hand, so when this sale came up I jumped on it. At least a few other SBAF'ers did the same, so I'm hoping they will chime in on the discussion here and share their thoughts. I think @yotacowboy picked up a pair as a modding project, so I'm curious to hear about those experiments.

    [​IMG]

    Specs

    • Weight: 385 g
    • Driver: 50mm FreeEdge drivers (biocellulose/paper diaphragm)
    • Impedance: 24 Ω
    • Sensitivity: 103 dB/mW
    • Maximum power: 1.8 mW
    • MSRP: $700 (currently on sale from Denon at $559)
    Frequency Response (credit: @Crinacle)
    [​IMG]

    Early thoughts


    On Crin's site, his listening notes say: "Probably the least wonky of the new Denons. Suffers from some mid-bass bloat." I haven't heard the D7200 or D9200, but I agree that the sound signature is a pretty even and un-wonky. With respect to the mid-bass, I will say that one man's "bloat" is another man's "tastefully elevated." Given that I picked these up specifically as a complement to the HD600 that actually made bass, I fall mostly into the latter camp. Don't ask me to evaluate shit like headstage. I have a 2-channel setup, so I don't mind if my headphones sound like headphones and not wannabe speakers. Here are some bullets, I will try to be concise:
    • Ergonomics and build:
      • Build inspires confidence, quality materials. I have a big head, so I've got the yokes 100% extended and they barely fit. Ymmv, but fair warning if you have a big head that these might not fit you. These are not a plastic toy, they're legit. A bit heavy for my tastes, not ZMF or Focal territory, but not 100% comfortable laying down either depending on where your head is. The top headband pad might bother some people or create a "hot spot", but I don't mind it. If you have big ears, you might have problems with the pads, which have pretty small openings.
    • Packaging and accessories:
      • You get a little carry bag, but that's pretty much it. The box is simple, not quite as nice as the Sennheiser HD600 box (the Irish one). The cable absolutely f'ing sucks, and I cannot emphasize this enough. It's horrible stiff garbage with a shitty quarter inch adapter. It's detachable with flush-mounted 3.5mm connectors on the cups, so plan on picking up a third party cable if you buy these.
    • Amp requirements and synergy:
      • These are low-impedance cans, and I'm not a big fan of how they sound from the SW51+. This is 100% to be expected because the Lo-Z output on the SW51 still has an output impedance around 25-27 Ω. This means the output impedance is about the same as the impedance of the headphone, and the damping factor is no bueno. I haven't seen the impedance curve for the D5200, but high output impedance also boosts the bass/mid-bass on most dynamic headphones, which doesn't do any favors to the D5200. Stick to < 2 Ω sources, that's what I've landed on anyway. Thankfully the synergy with the Vali 2 is excellent, especially on low gain. This little guy needed a job after the SW51+ demoted him from Sennheiser duty, so it's great that it pairs so well with the Denons.
    • Early sonic impressions:
      • These drivers are surprisingly capable. I'm pretty surprised at what I'm hearing from a 24 Ω can, which is an impedance range I normally associate with mass-market portable headphones. I don't want to exaggerate things, but these are the first headphones I've heard where when I switch to the HD600 I think, "Hmmm, I never realized these are a bit woolly." I bought the D5200 specifically for listening to popular recordings, and I think this is where they shine. If I were listening to classical music, audiophile recordings, or well-recorded acoustic music, I would probably reach for the Senns 9 times out of 10. But for 95% of contemporary music, which never really existed as a sonic event in the traditional sense, the D5200 is more satisfying, and maybe just plain better. I listen to literally everything, so it's a great Yin-Yang thing. Lady Gaga or Dua Lipa? D5200. Mahler or Gould? HD600. Honestly, I think for most normal human beings (non-audiophiles), they would like the D5200 more, flat out. These are darn competent, and they do more right than they do wrong. The sound signature is quite agreeable, and I personally don't see a need to mod them. That said, I wouldn't be surprised if mods could squeeze out even more performance out of these drivers (paging @E_Schaaf). These isolate pretty well. The Teak's are sometimes described as "semi-open", but I would call the D5200 closed.
    • Value proposition:
      • Do I think these are worth $700? No, probably not, but I'm a cheap bastard and wouldn't spend that kind of money on any headphone. But if you know what you're buying, and you find a pair for $400-500 new, or $250-350 used, I'd say that's a pretty fair deal.
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2020
  2. Prydz

    Prydz Friend

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    I've only heard the D7200, but I found them rather dull, boring. As a AH-D2000 owner, I dont want to "upgrade" to a boring headphone, I want AH-D2000 on steroids, but without the sort of piercing treble, and better midrange. I want fun.

    To me, it seems like D5200 suffer the same faith? "The sound signature is quite agreeable"
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2020
  3. monacelli

    monacelli Friend

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    The D5200 is the first of the range that I have heard, so I can't comment on how it compares to its more expensive brethren. It sounds like these might not be up your alley, but no I don't find them "dull" or "boring" at all. A lot of people refer to the HD6X0 in that way, so I suppose one could say that they are a bit boring in the sense that they don't have any serious or glaring aberrations in their frequency response. What I will say is that I detect zero treble fuckery or annoying peakage. I know a good portion of SBAF is sensitive to the hot upper mids on the HD600 and the JVC FD01. I can hear this characteristic of the HD600, but it doesn't irritate me at all from good amps. This characteristic/feature is not present on the D5200 at all. They have pretty nice mids in my opinion, which are more relaxed in the 3-4k region. Some people may hear the mids as slightly recessed due to the somewhat elevated (~5-6 dB) bass response from 20-200 Hz. To my ear, this pushes vocalists down/back in the mix a bit, but again not in an annoying way where they get lost in the rest of the music. Honestly, it's kind of similar to how I hear the HD600 on the SW51+, which for some reason (transformers maybe) has a similar effect with vocals in comparison to Vali 2 (where they tend to sound a bit more forward). For me, an agreeable sound signature with good technicalities is exactly what I'm looking for in a headphone. Somehow 98% of headphones manage to screw up one or the other (or both). In the case of the D5200, they have a specific sound signature, which by design is not 100% neutral. I knew this going in and it was what I wanted out of a complementary closed back can. What surprised me was their technicalities. I didn't expect them to be in the same league as the HD6X0, but they are. As I mentioned above, they actually manage to make the HD600 sound a bit mid-fi when I put them back on (although I still love them).
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2020
  4. yotacowboy

    yotacowboy McRibs Kind of Guy

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    I suppose I'll chime in here since I also got in on the two-hundy-dollar throwback to the "good old days" of d2000 kind of modability. Quick take on the stock 5200: a bit wooly and chesty - too much upper bass, lower midbass emphasis to be considered worth it even at $200. At $500-700? No f'ing way.

    Now, applying some of the known Foster/Fostex "best practices" tweaks has done a huge job in pulling back the Beats by Dre inspired muddiness. I know some Friends have been wondering why I sold off a ton of my shit, well, these aren't why. BUT! There's some serious potential with these, like any other biodyna/sealed cup can from Foster. Things I don't like so far: non-standard (i.e., not 4") pad sizing. FFS, why make it .45" smaller? I've not gone deep dive on the pads, but my cursory amazon searches lend few credible options for pad rolling. I need to dig more on this.

    The most startling thing about these is in line with @monacelli's perception that on technicalities, and I don't say this lightly: the 5200s are competitive with HD600 in the midrange thru the lower treble. Thru Asgard3, they're impressively capable in detail/microdynamics. And, they scale to a smidge lesser amount than HD600 on better gear. The 5200s are cleaner and more expressive, especially in the vocal range, than I remember my old D2000s (and TH-X00s) ever to be. Those were sometimes a bit shouty and definitely lacked finesse in the treble. There's a better bit of honesty and clarity in the upper midrange that (especially after toning down the bass hump thru mods) gets really close to something like Aeolus - and if you're careful in tuning the bass, the extension is there, too, I just think some better tuning can bring it more in line with something like @E_Schaaf's 900s/other fostex experiments, based on his descriptions and measurements. I don't think my modded 5200s bang out the bass like my old mahogany or ebony TH-X00s, yet, but I think the potential is there - I just need to play with the porosity of the front foam ring and the baffle vents, I think.
     
  5. monacelli

    monacelli Friend

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    For @yotacowboy and others who are interested in modding these to make the frequency response a bit more neutral below 200 Hz, I remembered this reddit thread [link] where @Eudis Fernandes shared some cool thoughts on modding the TH-610. He came up with a solution to control the venting on the TH-610 by covering some ports with micropore tape, and poking holes to allow airflow (a la @james444's DD iem mods). I have no idea if these mods would be directly applicable to the D5200, but they might at least provide some inspiration. I agree that the stock tuning deviates enough from neutral to prevent these from being an outstanding all-rounder (which they definitely have the potential to be). With the stock tuning, I enjoy hip hop and pop recordings, but it doesn't suit all genres. Outkast? Definitely. But for genres where the bass/midbass gets in the way, I would reach for the Senns. In that context, I would agree that the D5200 sounds a bit bloated depending on the material (with the stock tuning). If there is a simple/reversible way to tone it down say 3 dB below 200 Hz, that would go a long way toward making the D5200 a pretty great closed all-rounder.
     
  6. Philimon

    Philimon Friend

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    Just received these this morning. Haven’t listened yet - only tried on to make sure it was working and curious to check fit. The headband and ear pads are not great. The foam is kinda stiff in both. And the headband has barely enough length with just small contact patch at top of head. I have adjusted to full and it just barely sits right. I would say modifying headband pad might be necessary for me. Pads will get rolled too for something more comforming. I’ve got these on hand, and may order something else if necessary. Also, have some stock t50rp pads that I might try for fun. Impressions and EARS measures coming up later. Will say that for the 10seconds they were on my head, music on shuffle, unknown music playing, they sounded nice and detailed. I’ll dredge through the HF thread to share for there were some good photos of these torn down and impressions.
     
  7. Philimon

    Philimon Friend

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    VRacer-111 at HF:
    https://www.head-fi.org/threads/den...-of-the-ah-d7200.875053/page-23#post-16020025

    [​IMG]

    I've had AH-D2000, TH-X00 Mahogany, Purplehearts, custom Palo Santo, and heard the Ebonies. The AH-D5200 shares a bit of the subbass focus of the previous Denon/Fostex biodynas, but it's more controlled/tighter and also much more forward in mids/vocals... the mids really remind me of the Porta Pros/HD6XX... but really focused on and brighter compared to them so it comes off a little uneven in character where the Porta Pros and HD6XX sound very uniform and well balanced. The AH-D5200 also is thinner and brighter sounding than any of the previous Denon/Fostex... the subbass doesn't have the massive power behind it that the Fostex Purplehearts do, but that also make it punchier and tighter sounding. It's a more energetic and highly strung sound, which also feels less warm and less solid compared to the Fostexs. I'm coming around to the AH-D5200, but it's no TH-X00 Purpleheart replacement... too bright, too thin, missing the smooth musical vibe, and that monstrous low end energy presence.

    Also weirdly, it seems to favor SS amp over hybrid tube amp... where the TH-X00 Purplehearts are kind of opposite.

    The zebrawood cups are also a bit disappointing to me... I don't know what was exactly done to it, but seems they colored the wood and used a matte/satin clear coat over it to make it a particular dark shade/color for the overall look of the headphone. Why do that to one of the most gorgeous tonewoods you can get? Unmolested zebrawood is absolutely gorgeous and beautiful to look at:

    Edit: removed a pic of D2000 internals thinking it was D5200
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2020
  8. E_Schaaf

    E_Schaaf MOT: E.T.A Headphones

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    This is only a half-solution with the Foster variants in a closed back configuration. Yes, you'll get less bass and a more linear transition to the midrange, but you're also trapping substantially more energy inside the cup. Put your fingers against the cup while listening - you'll feel the conduction through the cup walls. Microdynamics will suffer slightly as these drivers are very sensitive to flex and anything preventing full excursion. The fact that only 2 driver vents are open with the stock headphone does mitigate this effect somewhat, but the difference in dynamics with multiple rear vents open when you seal off the baffle is very noticeable. There are better ways to route airflow out of the headphone without directly flowing to the ear.

    Pad swap, front-ring swap, or driver venting are the most direct and dramatic broad-stroke approaches to drastically changing the sound.
     
  9. monacelli

    monacelli Friend

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    Interesting. If your goal was to reduce the bass on the D5200 (or similar) by ~3-4 dB from 20-200 Hz, what would you suggest specifically? Let's suppose we're constrained to non-destructive, reversible mods that are easy to do and reproducible. With a pad swap, I would be concerned about borking other aspects of the FR, which I'm pretty happy with throughout the rest of the audible range.
     
  10. E_Schaaf

    E_Schaaf MOT: E.T.A Headphones

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    Induce a stable leaky pad seal for less bass with the rest unaffected. A piece of foam on the front mounting ring would probably do the trick. Or wear thicker glasses?

    Edit - you could also use a thin adhesive material stuck to the back wall of the cup to de-boomify them a bit.
     
  11. Lyander

    Lyander Official SBAF Equitable Empathizer

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    Not e,_schaaf but what worked for me before I decided I was ok with the stock tuning (Klipsch HP-3 and TH-X00 Ebony):

    Stuff the cups with something to reduce internal volume without compromising air flow? Acoustic fibers may be fun to play with. I've never had access to the same so played around with cotton patches, the difference is pretty discernible.

    Doing a Klipsch and venting the front of the baffle by spacing the pads out a bit may help too. Biodyna designs a la Fostex are super seal dependent. If you wear glasses, have you noticed any changes in response when it's not properly coupled with the sides of your head?

    Edit:
    Dammit. We are now even for me scooping you in the other thread, @E_Schaaf :))
     
  12. yotacowboy

    yotacowboy McRibs Kind of Guy

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    Posting this here in case folks missed it buried in my status:

    [​IMG]

    Edit: Another thing I noticed that's different than my old D2000s/TH-X00 is that the baffle looks to be a fiber reinforced plastic, rather than ABS. And I agree the finish on the cups is pretty ugly. looking on the inside of the cup you can actually see it's a nice looking wood - Denon just chose the wrong finish.
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2020
  13. Philimon

    Philimon Friend

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    Initial impressions: reminds me of 6XX but better bass and brighter (bad). I have long hair so seal might be off for me even though there is good clamp. Wondering if I can bend headband. Shallower and softer pads I think will be nice improvement. Lambskin pads mentioned in previous post feel softer and are shallower. They actually look great for t60rp as well @E_Schaaf

    Got distracted from testing and measurements because enjoying some rap.

    6XX memory is a bit old. Havent used in months because much prefer Grado Hemp despite it being less resolving.
     
  14. E_Schaaf

    E_Schaaf MOT: E.T.A Headphones

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    Just for a point of reference / triangulation, here's some D7200 measurements. Not sure what's different about the build vs the D5200 (if they're like other Foster types they're probably identical aside from cup / pad swap and aesthetics).

    The D5200 graphs in the previous posts look to be more balanced (at least in the crinacle measurements). Marv's D7200 measurements look very smooth, with more bass and smoother treble than we see on the other measurements. Interesting. I will note that I have seen shifts as dramatic with positioning and pads on Foster variants, but if these are both FPC, I have no idea what could cause such substantial variation in the highs. Comp curve differences shouldn't hide or reveal the sizeable peak we see at 5.5k on Crinacle measurements. Foster's drivers aren't always perfectly matched, but then again Denon might have taken the Foster design to another OEM builder. I do wish I had a D#200 in hand to check / make a baseline measurement with EARS.

    @Crinacle D7200:
    [​IMG]

    Marv D7200 FPC:
    [​IMG]
     
  15. Philimon

    Philimon Friend

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    My EARS measurements. Read here for more details.

    D5200 vs 6XX SBAF comp 1.jpg
     
  16. yotacowboy

    yotacowboy McRibs Kind of Guy

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    I'd be happy to send mine out for any one that has a measurement rig to compare stock to lightly modded. I'm not wedded to them; they're good for $200 but not fantastic, yet.
     
  17. Philimon

    Philimon Friend

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    D5200 SBAF comp lamb 2.jpg

    D5200 lamb vs 6XX 1.jpg

    D5200 lamb vs 6XX 2.jpg
     
  18. Philimon

    Philimon Friend

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    D5200 before after lamb.jpg
    * going to need to take more measurements to average for placement and such. these are first trials
     
  19. monacelli

    monacelli Friend

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    I was horsing around this evening with partially covering the ports, and I agree with you on this. I would not consider myself a modder at all, I generally only try really simple stuff like James' FD01 mod. For this test, I didn't have any micropore tape on hand, so I just trimmed two little pieces of electrical tape and covered each port by ~50% (by applying the tape on the front side of the baffle). Super easy since I didn't have to separate the baffle from the cups.

    Aside: For folks reading this thread, the pad mounting rings on the Denons are a little different from the Fostex design. You don't remove them by rotating the rings counterclockwise. Instead you have to apply pressure inward to release the attachment clips. Here's a video explaining it [link].​

    After I got the pads back on and starting listening, both of the things you mentioned were apparent. The port mod is clearly effective in reducing the bass, and the transition from the midbass into the mids is more seamless. But, and this is a pretty big but, you lose many of the intangible qualities that make this a cool headphone to listen to. I don't even know if I would describe it in terms of microdynamics, etc. But something special goes missing, and it takes on a slightly nasal and congested quality (kind of boxy). It's funny, whenever I've experimented with stuffing the ports on my bass reflex speakers (with socks usually), I never cared for it either. With your foam suggestion, on which side of the mounting ring were you thinking? Between the mounting ring and the pad, or between the mounting ring and the metal housing? The foam would have to be pretty thin between the ring and the housing because of how the pads are mounted, but the gap probably wouldn't have to be very big to induce a leaky seal. It might even be easier to apply the foam to the housing, rather than the mounting ring. Is that basically the right idea? @Lyander I know you have experience with the HP3, so your thoughts would be appreciated too.
     
  20. monacelli

    monacelli Friend

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    To follow up on this briefly, I have arrived at a mod that allows me to achieve most of my sonic objectives with these (I'm not trying to squeeze out the last 0.5% of SQ). It's simple enough that even a modding dummy like me can do it. First, I removed the electrical tape that I used to partially cover the ports on the baffle. As mentioned above, I do not recommend this. It makes the D5200 sound ~30% worse and is not a viable tuning mechanism, imo. My original plan was to pick up some creatology foam that I could apply between the metal housing and the pad mounting ring. The idea here is to space the pads out a bit, creating a leaky seal (and thus reducing the bass below 200 Hz by ~3 dB). I didn't have any of the foam on hand, but I did have Blu-Tack, which every audiophile should keep around. So I removed the pads and applied two small strips of Blu-Tack, about 5mm x 8mm, at due East and due West on the metal housing (over the screws). I didn't smush the Blu-Tack down all the way, leaving it about 2-3mm high so that there was air space between the mounting ring and the housing. I reattached the pads, being careful not to fully smush the Blu-Tack. Immediately after putting them on, I noticed that the isolation was reduced (which was the goal). My purely subjective assessment is that the bass is pretty much where I want it, and that the transition into the mids is smoother. Not perfectly smooth, but as close as I care to get it. I don't want to fundamentally change what these headphones are, I just want to tweak the signature a bit so they can play nice with more music. I will have to check to make sure that the Blu-Tack doesn't fully compress over time, but that would be an issue with foam too. Using this simple 10-minute mod does turn them into "semi-closed" headphones, rather than closed, but I don't mind. It's kind of nice to be more aware of your surroundings actually. I like these for what they are, and don't think I'll monkey around with them too much more (other than perhaps applying some felt inside the cups).
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2020

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