Audio Science Review Review

Discussion in 'Audio Science' started by purr1n, Aug 30, 2020.

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  1. Hands

    Hands Overzealous Auto Flusher - Measurbator

    Staff Member Pyrate MZR
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    You mean like the recent video in which he brought up noise shaping, only to then say something akin to, "But it's too complex for me to explain if you don't already understand it, so just take my word for it that it's fine and you won't hear this."

    If you can't distill a complex topic into an understandable, high-level summary, you probably don't understand it.

    I've seen objective-oriented folks that are much better than this. His approach, in this case, was more like that of a car salesman reading specs off a car brochure in front of the buyer.
     
  2. bboris77

    bboris77 Friend

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    Amir is using a typical "attack is the best form of defense" approach to deflect from the fact that his own legitimacy as a reviewer both in technical and ethical sense has been questioned. Instead of addressing the perceived shortcomings in his approach, he goes on attack against an easy target (at least for his target audience), Danny Richie, thereby solidifying his base. Based on their comments, his supporters are LOVING the videos. It is kind of sickening.

    It is times like these when I really appreciate Schiit's very classy "Don’t talk Schiit" policy about not attacking other manufacturers. I know that Amir is not a manufacturer, but I don't consider him a reviewer either - he is an influencer with an expensive measuring device used as a marketing gimmick.

    As for me personally, I have given up on trying to contribute to ASR by pointing out the obvious flaws in logic and using common sense approach to things. I was recently singled out, quoted and attacked there for daring to question the "Amir's measurements are the only thing that matters" approach. I then proceeded to explain my ethical concerns with ASR using measurements to push certain expensive products and nobody even blinked. All I hope now is that manufacturers like Schiit and JDS will focus on things other than trying to one up Topping at the measurements game.
     
  3. crenca

    crenca Friend

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    Playing the role of "a voice crying in the wilderness" is a thankless task. Mostly you will be ignored, and when you are noticed you will just be pummeled not vindicated. You can't change a culture as it's too big with a momentum all its own, and with its own reasons for being what it is. Being "right" has nothing to do with it. It's good you have given up hope of changing/convincing ASR ;)
     
  4. Empyah

    Empyah Facebook Friend

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    I find it appalling when someone like Amir goes after a guy like Danny - who seems to me like a genuine enthusiast who just (besides making a buck) wants to share his knowledge and experience with the comunity - that's the impression I got from him by watching his videos at least.

    I believe this one will bite Amir in the ass - karma is a bitch.
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2021
  5. amichael03

    amichael03 New

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    As someone who is extremely new to the scene, I wanted to add that the people pointing out the fact that Amir basically preys on people like me are spot on.

    It's very difficult to find trustworthy reviews on headamps, dacs, and cans as an outsider. ASR SEO must be perfectly optimized as it was always a top result while I was doing research on gear. I can see how newbies fall for his shit with the way he talks himself up as an expert and authority in the space, and his use of inconsistent data to bullshit his way through his takes.

    He's like a magician with those measurements, the untrained and gullible eye won't notice the deception (gullible being the key word). I definitely did not until I started lurking SBAF.

    People like myself do not know what high quality gear sounds like. We really do not know better, and can easily believe that there isn't anything better than what we were told to buy, I MEAN THE MEASUREMENTS. It's a dream of having better equipment than others and not wanting to realize you were conned is where I think a lot of the loyalty might come from within this crowd... My generation seems to be a bit too prideful, that would be a massive blow.

    So much so that I remember reading a post on here quoting an ASR member waiting enthusiastically for their third Topping L30 to come in after the first two blew up in their face... Definitely cannot justify this persons actions, I'd say it falls under the definition of insanity

    Beyond being scummy by picking and choosing how equipment is measured, ASR's community must not understand the law of diminishing returns. But hey, I wouldn't have known that his measurements focus on dumb metrics if not for lurking SBAF. I really hope he gets exposed, because I do not like the idea of companies being blackballed into bad designs by prioritizing areas that add nothing to our experience as users while sacrificing aspects that absolutely affect performance.

    Thankfully, I have a decade of experience in the PC Enthusiast community so I did not fall for it. His writing style tipped me off. Anytime a product is recommended without consideration of preference (especially in audio) or use case (more so in the PC Hardware space), a red flag should go off. Typically means someone sold out.

    I also learned early on that no single setup is perfect, and people in the community have multiple sets of headphones, amps and such to handle different music or to switch based on mood. This I whole heartedly agree with.

    Anyway, don't mean for this to come off as a rant as much as I meant for it to come off as a explanation and an apology for people like myself that just don't know better.
     
  6. Lyander

    Lyander Official SBAF Equitable Empathizer

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    The vast majority of consumers are idiots. That's never been in question and is evidenced by a lot of what you see in malls and shopping TV. I think loads of people start where you did, as I certainly was in a similar space when the Objective 2 amp was a hot new thing— pride among younger folk is definitely a trope that's withstood the test of time, the truly scary thing being that some grow so disused to contradictory beliefs that they immediately turn to aggression and disdain, and hiding in comfortable cubbyholes where everyone sees the same things they do. Despite acknowledging that I can't say I don't still do that either; humans are wired weirdly.

    It's hard to ignore how they manage to game the SEO scene since more often than not I find them at the top of Google results.

    I'm going back the other direction— I just recently began trying to build my first PC after spending a fair few years in this hobby (RIP affordable parts), so in the same way your experience in PC land tipped you off about Voldemort's writing style reading the commentary on UserBenchMark made me recoil because it brought Mouldy Voldy to mind and warned me off taking their benchmarks at face value. Still a ways off from building the silly thing but it's honestly been fun learning all sorts of new (to me) things, almost as fun as messing with audio gear and trying to suss out what measurements make sense and how they do so.

    Hearing superlative gear is a rich person's game, but thankfully the less expensive stuff really is a lot better nowadays. Possibly an unpopular opinion but you can kinda get away sinking a lot into "good" headphones, finding a cheaper amp that suits it well, and using a random DAC that isn't absolute horsecrap and be happy. It's still loads of fun to try stuff that you can't feasibly afford any year soon though, even if only in meet settings. I miss doing that but the current situation doesn't lend itself to social gatherings over trivial pursuits. Do hope you and others new to the scene manage to find gear that makes you dance in place— loads of enthusiasts, at least in local circles, are happy to let people try their gear last I checked, and you need only filter out as much of the ambient noise and sense of smarmy boastfulness as you can to get a reasonable impression of the junk.
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2021
  7. amichael03

    amichael03 New

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    I've been trying to find a good ASR comparison in the PC space, and this wins hands down in my mind.

    Thankfully we also have Gamers Nexus, who has a ton of influence and journalistic credibility. He's called out UserBenchMark, has recently and successfully put pressure on NZXT to issue a recall, called out MSI for their shady business practices as they attempted to buy good reviews from small tech reviewers, and then some.

    He'd have a field day with ASR.

    I agree, having done it in reverse order. I've already started looking into DIY cabling and it's so much fun picking up a new hobby. Getting into cars had a similar effect. Just being able to tweak everything as you see fit, pick up fun projects, etc..

    Feel free to ask me any questions you might have with the PC stuff. Hopefully everything will be in stock sooner rather than later (though I wouldn't bet on it sadly), and it's definitely a hobby where finding the sweet spot for what you need and not falling for the hype is important. Considering your experience with the audiophile community, I'm sure you won't fall for the insane marketing tactics.

    I love my Schiit Stack (modi/magni 3+) no matter what Amir thinks of the knob placement! They've allowed me to experience my favorite songs as if they were just introduced to me. Which makes me wish more music junkies knew what they could have for the price of their more mainstream consumer headphones.

    The thread on the Jot2 keeps me optimistic about future upgrades as well, that thing sounds right up my alley.

    Being able to try gear at any price point would help so much, but getting a chance to hear some true HiFi systems would be such an awesome experience, even if it's just for a bit.

    SBAF definitely helps with the filter, plus adds a lot of different opinions for different tastes, it's been very helpful.

    Also, I need to add, you guys make me laugh so damn hard with how you all handle trolls on here. The thread with the guy complaining about Schiit canceling his order had some comedic gold

    ---------------------------------
    I know the above might not have much to do with the current thread, so if it is out of place, mods please feel free to move or delete. This is something I haven't gotten a good feel for yet

    Edit: excuse the delete comment, I believe it's policy not to do that in SBAF so ignore that suggestion
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2021
  8. Vtory

    Vtory Audiophile™

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    I just realized this thread heavily focus on Amir's content, rather than ASR as a forum or community. Does any one have some thoughts or experience to share? I'm wondering how people are ASR-rized and sticking to that place. Amir could not be a long term motivation factor FWIW. Then what's the trick?

    I have a strong curiosity how Amir convinced folks like Solderdude to be active exclusively on asr -- assuming no financial baits.
     
  9. Lyander

    Lyander Official SBAF Equitable Empathizer

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    Hah! I'd learned of gamers nexus just a couple months ago and have been binge watching loads of their content (alongside others like JayzTwoCents, BitWit, and The Verge— last one is sarcasm) to supplement the laughs I get watching LTT. I actually came to see them as the PC analogue to SBAF when Steve Burke mentioned how measurements can only tell so much and how taking a more holistic approach to things is the way to go. Became an instant fan, would have loved a modmat if it weren't so pricey and had to be shipped Transpacific. Love how they covered the NZXT H1 catching fire on account of the poorly designed PCIe riser (I think it was?). Also I went with a Sapphire 5600 XT BE cuz I found one at a not-evil price, like the blackout look, and was actively avoiding MSI for the same reason lmao.

    It's a journey. Expensive as hell but at least components can be expected to last reasonably long barring someone going full XOC happy.

    More on topic: @Vtory frankly in the same way some appear to view SBAF as a community of 'phools who like the sound of distortion the reduction of the entire ASR community as "Amir and cronies" is likewise a disservice to them.

    ... but they by and large relegate the evaluation of audio gear to single inane metrics so HAH.
     
  10. gepardcv

    gepardcv Almost "Made"

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    On the ASR thread about the Amp Camp Amp (which I don’t have the energy to go find it to link directly, and risk seeing it again), some people adamantly refused to understand the pedagogical intent of the design and kept restating that fact. Then they started commenting on Nelson Pass’s physical appearance. To be fair, a couple of members called this out as completely inappropriate, but they were distinctly in the minority and (when I read it) were shouted down.
     
  11. MrMumbly

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    Amir promotes a WOW factor with his suite of expensive test equipment. WOW, must be accurate and reliable because of the fancy expensive test equipment. There is another, particularly irritatingly arrogant member, who performs barely High School level experiments claiming to prove capacitors, resistors, wire, connectors, etc. can't possibly impact sound quality. You know, the mantra, parts is parts, quality makes no difference.

    The methodology of the experiments is so crude it is impossible to engage in meaningful discussion. Possibly intentional. Any challenge to the method or results is met by ASR minions on the attack.

    Many other ASR members write posts as if paid by the word. Who is the smartest kid today game. And then there are the obligatory snarky comments on any topic from a peanut gallery that contribute nothing else.

    The ASR minions must gather for a variety of reasons, most evident is self affirmation. Cloaked in "science" allows them to feel smarter and superior. Every sin they assign to others, they are guilty of four fold.
     
  12. Rthomas

    Rthomas Friend

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    I find Amir's headphone reviews more useful than Jude's reviews. Or Gutenberg or Headfonics or any number of other audiophile websites.

    There is a lot wrong with his approach , I'm just picking the little bit out that I find useful.
     
  13. Lyander

    Lyander Official SBAF Equitable Empathizer

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    There are no shortages of people measuring headphones, and some of them have even managed to develop a reasonably consistent methodology to lend credence to their reports. Even if they happen to use consumer target curves people can always learn to mentally compensate for those, or just read raw measurements if any— this is why I still appreciate the like of RTINGS, oratory1990 (before the shift to their own curve which was awesome— didn't even notice until it was spelled out) and Keith Howard, among stalwarts like crinacle, ultrabike, Serious, and of course purr1n.

    Whatever utility can be had out of Amir's squiggles can well likely be derived from many, many others, some of whom don't even advocate for extensive equalisation. Is this enough to offset the effect the misbegotten dogmas he pushes have had on the hobby?
     
  14. Mont789

    Mont789 Acquaintance

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    When I was there I was mostly full of Redditors who can't read charts/data, Or hope no one goes "Wait it are you sure?" when they tout stuff as fact. Like how there distortion thresholds vary depending on what headphone is being bashed, Since many there seem own gear that measures worse than the Etymotic ER4. Heck I got banned there when one lashed out at me when I doubted he could tell H.264 & others above 15mbit, or why modern lossy audio could do 512 ~ 1000kbps on complex stuff. By ones that told me I kept saying subjective impressions on Headphones are invalid?.

    There too quick to deem anything they disagree with as trolling. The current mod was horrid for doing that when I brought up the SR225e having a lot fans despite charts showing it being a hot mess?.
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2021
  15. Wushuliu

    Wushuliu Acquaintance

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    OMG, Danny vs. Amir? Looks like I picked the wrong week to stop sniffing solder o_O. Danny has his own background of (mild) controversies amongst the DIY speaker crowd and his admirers are just as devoted as the ASR crowd. Unlike Amir, however, Danny does have decades worth of experience and the respect of his peers i.e the real world.

    Amir shoulda stuck to DACs. Can't roll up on folks like Nelson Pass and Danny Richie unless you had your Wheaties.
     
  16. Aklegal

    Aklegal Friend

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    I really like Danny. I post in his forum on AudioCircle more than any other audio forum. I've owned 6 pairs of speakers he designed and he is generally a nice, and helpful dude. But the inductor video was stupid if what you are trying to do is prove that speaker cables make a difference. It's a perfect video for explaining the importance of proper inductor placement in speaker crossovers though.

    I think he should just ignore Amir after that crappy review Amir did with one of his DIY speakers last year.
     
  17. Senorx12562

    Senorx12562 Case of the mondays

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    Good advice for all at this point. I think all that need be said has been.
     
  18. Tekker

    Tekker Facebook Friend

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    I find Amir’s way of presenting his videos extremely boring... Can’t stand watching him.
     
  19. nishan99

    nishan99 Friend

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    You were too subjective for their objective discussion.

    The problem is you can not ignore him, he's literally feeding on the noobs and dumbs and shifting the entry level market to the worse.

    After a while those noobs and dumbs may not know better and the upgrade itch will kick in and guess what market they looking for for their "upgrades"?, they will target the mid range market with the same ill and toxic mentality forcing manufacturers to cater for them for easy money $$$.
    Garbage sounding perfectly measuring gear flooding the market from the bottom up thanks to his propaganda.

    What did you expect? they perfectly mirror his writing.
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2021
  20. Senorx12562

    Senorx12562 Case of the mondays

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    Au contraire, Dude. I have no problem at all ignoring him. I think your fears about his effect on the marketplace are overblown. There will always be a market for fairly-priced, good sounding audio gear. More importantly, nothing I can do will have the slightest impact on what happens at that website. Worrying about shit over which I have zero control is counter-productive, as that way lies madness. Been there, done that. But you do you. If the hand-wringing and gnashing of teeth make you feel better, have at it. I have better things to do, almost anything actually. Unfortunately, Amir is far from the only con artist currently at work, many of them operating in spheres far more important than audio gear. But I have been wrong before, and I have references.
     
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