Nearfields for audiophile listening?

Discussion in 'Speakers' started by sashafuckinggrey, Feb 27, 2016.

  1. yunie_

    yunie_ Acquaintance

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    The reputation of the Geithain always has been in my mind, some sort of 5inch holy grail for pro audio. you have your JBL 305<Adam a5x<genelecs<neumann kh120a<PSI<Geithain.
     
  2. Lautreamont

    Lautreamont New

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    I'm using Navis on stands about 6 feet away from me, due to space constraints in the room, and they sound great. Not sure if that qualifies as nearfield or midfield, perhaps right at the cusp. The sounded better to me than KEF LS50 Wireless V1 when I compared them. I'd be interested in comparing them to LS50 Wireless II now.
     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2021
  3. Pharmaboy

    Pharmaboy Friend

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    6 ft away qualifies as midfield...

    Update re my own nearfield system (ATC SCM12 Pro's powered by Wyred4Sound ST-500 class D amp): Up to now I've avoided the expense & hassle of biwiring the ATCs, instead preferring to use a single run of good quality AQ cable with a pair of 12 gauge jumpers joining the input connector pairs on the back of each monitor. But recently I pulled a bunch of late '80s speaker cables out of storage--this included 2 x 5 ft. runs (L+R cable) of Monster Cable M1. That was excellent stuff back in the day. There it is, thick as a garden hose, begging to be used to biwire the ATCs.

    But first I have to get around the fact that all 16 ends of these 4 cables are terminated in spade lugs. I need 1/2 the terminations to be bananas, so I purchased 8 high quality spade lug to banana adapters. Hoping those come in during next day or two. Will post comments after I finish the biwiring & do some listening.

    FWIW, the only other time I tried biwiring was back in 1987 with a very complicated, large, amazing sounding pair of speakers, the Vandersteen 4s. I was already biamping them w/SS on the subwoofer inputs & a single run of cable from a big tube amp going to the mid & upper input terminals (w/internal jumper switch ON, connecting those mid + upper inputs...told you it was complicated). The gain in sound when I switched to biwiring (and switched the internal jumper OFF) was immediately apparent & worth the effort. I'd be gratified if anything equivalent happened with the ATCs.
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2021
  4. Johnny Opps

    Johnny Opps Facebook Friend

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    So, finally broke down and bought a pair of Mission MS-50’s on eBay, for, basically, nothing. They’re the speaker that an 85 year old friend of mine has in his 15 year old Denon bookshelf system that I’ve always just enjoyed listening to. They replaced the other speakers I’d tried (fed by a Gungnir MB and an Emotiva A-100), including the Paradigm Atom 5’s, the KEF Q150s, and a bunch of other more happily rated more “modern” speakers with a lot of engineering in their drivers. The MS-50’s are 2-ways made in Malaysia (you can find the UK version, but I didn’t bother at the price) with a 4” driver. Love ‘em - and they’re the right scale for the volume of listening I do with speakers in my small office. I thought about L3/5as and lots of other options - but they just push too much air. YMMV, but I bet there are a lot of forgotten greats running around eBay for a song.
     
  5. bixby

    bixby Friend

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    I sold Mission speakers decades ago and bought a pair for myself, model 700 or the like, not sure. Great sound similar to ADS 710. Sadly many more popular speakers are sold or tried to be sold on ebay for crazy inflated prices. It is hard to find a bargain now. Sounds like you have! cheers!
     
  6. nishan99

    nishan99 Friend

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    Has anyone heard about this store and some of their speakers?.
    https://queenway.aliexpress.com/sto...50f350irlRU4&origin=n&SortType=bestmatch_sort

    Their Scanspeak bookshelfs seem solid.
    The biggest advantage I see is their free fast shipping to my country without taxes or customs.
    Importing anything from Europe or NA will cost me +$350 for shipping + %20 for customs and taxes.

    I tried to google impressions of their speakers and nothing shows up :confused:.
     
  7. Pharmaboy

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    UPDATE to my "biwiring" post above...

    It was a huge PITA to biwire the ATCs. Those vintage monster cables are thick, not very flexible; and the spade lugs (at least some of the connections had be spades for technical reasons) proved sub-par, not quite wide enough for modern WBT connectors on the Wyred4Sound ST-500 amp (had to modify them w/needle nose pliers).

    When it all finished, I let those old wires cook for days. Then the other day I cranked the system beyond the usual low-volume used for classical music. What I heard were several unwelcome sonic changes:
    • The bass is suddenly less deep & impactful--affecting not just the lowest bass notes, but also to an extent the mid-bass. It's easy to hear these things given the excellent JLAudio sub & the mid-bass prowess of these ATCs
    • There is now a consistent glare in the upper mids/lower treble. It wasn't there before & isn't something I associate with these passive monitors
    • And there's a touch of grain in the treble--quite opposite the pristine clarity I usually hear from the ATCs' over-built, extremely capable tweeters
    So the biwiring experiment failed & I'll revert to the previous wiring (Audioquest type 4 speaker cable + 12 gauge jumpers on each ATC). I suspect the problem isn't biwiring itself, but instead, inadequate sonics of the Monster M1 cables. But the only way to check would be invest another ~$225 for a second run of Audioquest type 4.

    Nope--not interested. The way I had them wired previously sounds quite impressive.
     
  8. bixby

    bixby Friend

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    I'd be leery, none of the electronics they sell that I checked indicate what power version you may get. Some showed pics of 220v but who knows.

    The speakers could be good if someone who is very good with crossovers designed them. As we know cabinets are the big cost and labor factor. Kind of a pricey gamble if they are not nearly as good as some of the diy stuff out there. Maybe worth paying more locally to get the cabinet built for a design you know and have heard.
     
  9. Thad E Ginathom

    Thad E Ginathom Friend

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    How do they do that? The customs bit. That is not down to the supplier: it is down to the official who decides to take a look at your parcel and decide whether it is dutiable and how much. In most countries.
     
  10. nishan99

    nishan99 Friend

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    idk how they do it, if the item is eligible for AE Direct Shipping it always shows "VAT included" and I bought multiple items and it is true, no VAT on delivery and also most of the times no customs too unless the item is expensive, I think the threshold is like $400+ then yes I have to pay for customs only.

    And no the prices are not more expensive if it shows "VAT included", I think AE just pay for it? idk really.

    Anyhow the speaker deals are crazy value because of the free fast shipping and no %15 VAT.
     
  11. Thad E Ginathom

    Thad E Ginathom Friend

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    Well, if it works, it works! :)

    Here in India, most orders from AliExpress would come by post. Post was random-sampled, and the shere quantity meant that one was likely to get away with it. The big international couriers, on the other hand, have their own clearance procedures. Upside: it's quicker --- downside: everything gets assessed.

    Alternatively, there is Amazon international, where they assess the dues, charge them in advance, and pay on the customer's behalf. No nasty surprises on the doorstep. And even, occasionally, a refund.
     
  12. Luigi Pichardo

    Luigi Pichardo New

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    So would you recommend these Graham Monitors such as an LS6 or the LS6 floorstanding speaker to be fit for only small rooms? Or could they be enjoyed in medium sized living rooms albeit untreated, and still sound pretty good as opposed to other good far-field speakers of less price that are good sounding but don't match up to the micro dynamics and other attributes (Elac for example). This is assuming let say I share the same personal preferences to music and sound as you. The only difference would be I have a "medium field" setup and might listen to these off axis on a couch and still possibly like these.

    I have read reviews on these, and I can only see me contemplating studio monitors setups that would do these justice, or near field setups which could only appreciate these monitors, but maybe I am wrong and they can be enjoyed in a bit bigger room like a medium sized living room.

    This speaker has been added on my list based on the feedback I've viewed lately. I guess my question in short is are the LS6's also considered "mid field"?

    Thanks.
     
  13. Inoculator

    Inoculator Friend

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    I have only listened to my LS3/5a in a small room nearfield at home, but have heard both the LS3/5A and LS6 setup at my local audio shop in a decently sized space, probably medium room as you are thinking of it. I think both have the ability to sound stellar in any space that is not too large. I think you would lose a bit of the magic from the LS3/5A is you were pushing them to really fill a larger space though. Medium size though and at moderate listening levels? Heavenly. If I were you I would read the Stereophile review of the Chartwell LS3/5 and LS3/5A, as he kind of pitches the type of setup you seem to be considering. Non-listening room, Dining room/living room type setup.

    Now the LS6 I would say is another beast. I have heard them moderately loud, and they sound like huge speakers in my experience. Better bass, although still a bit of a reserved low-end as is typical with these BBC monitors. I absolutely would spring for LS6s over the LS3/5A for any medium-larger size spaced, and where I am not really fine tuning my listening environment. Granted, I have never had to position the LS6, but they sounded great playing while I wander around my audio shop, and the LS3/5A sounds very very different depending on positioning. Granted left with no toe in I can wander around my office and still really enjoy what they are putting out.
     
  14. hooligan

    hooligan New

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    Hi chaps. Been lurking this thread for years in and out for the great info.

    Curious: has anyone in here heard any of the pelonis models? 42, 4288, or the mkii version of either?

    I've had Adam A5X's since around when they came out. Sort of a nightmare to mix on. My headphones have been the preferred reference the entire time I've owned them. The bass is weird and phasey and bloated when the ports are unblocked. When I block them with stuffed paper towel, they're a bit easier to mix on but the transients are quite fucked. Overly forward, feels like they're pushing at you, and in that sense lacking detail or nuance majorly. Adjusting tweeter/woofer levels is no help.

    Definitely ready to sell em and get something more normal sounding. The reason I'm interested in the Pelonis models is I have some sense that they do PRAT well. The amp is supposed to have absurd headroom for its job, and the impulse response measurements on the website are mouthwatering....seem to surpass any speaker i've ever heard of.

    I have a funny taste that, as far as I can tell with pretty limited gear experience, seems to be right in between Psalm and Marv in the sense that I love microdynamics and super detailed rhythm and transient detail, but also am from the studio gear end of the spectrum and so insist on things sounding normal, ala psalm.

    I'm interested in the Yamahas, HS8 seeming to be the rec here, and also the SCM12's. Different budget ranges of course but....I suppose I can "afford" both but it would be more financial pressure to go higher...lol

    But I have an inkling about the pelonises, that they might do better with transients, which for me are all important in my mixing style. drums utterly foundational, yet everything is a percussion instrument in a way. natural, unencumbered transients are king, for me. electric speed or slow as a whale, whatever is needed.

    But they have metal tweeters. Titanium I believe. So that's the rub. I haven't heard them. I have a funny feeling the designer made it work. May order a pair of 42's off reverb and check it out.

    But anyway, interested in whatever anyone has to say. I don't know if I've heard psalm or anyone else speak too directly to the purposes of mixing.. To me, a transducer that's easy to mix on isn't necessarily distortion free, but the distortions it produces are easy to wrap your head around....so you can work around them. That's why I believe the NS-10 is so popular. Its distortion profile is very coherent and friendly. You can understand how it's going to color the music just by looking at it, pretty much. It sounds like paper and wood. And it also has very fast impulse decay.

    Compare that to the a5X's. They sound like a puddle of industrial confusion.
     
  15. Pharmaboy

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    Never heard of Pelonis, and the one monitor shown on the website can't be linked to (page not working).

    I'm not a music pro, just a music lover--but a couple years ago I went on a 3-month spree of researching powered studio monitors that might sound good for music appreciation in my desktop/nearfield application. A few comments from that:
    • I read many positive user comments and several reviews of the HEDD powered monitors. The Type 07 (w/7" woofer + AMT-style tweeter) costs ~$2K/pair. They don't quite fit my desktop; if they had, I would own them.
    • Yamaha HS7s: Bought a pair of these from ZenPro Audio; had them modded to improve clarity & articulation. But they were a bust on my desktop. Bass was OK, but the mids & treble were a weird combination of somewhat bright & somewhat muddy/indistinct). Many music pros on a a budget recommend the HS8s, though.
    • Adam monitors: I'm rather treble averse, and I read too many user comments about these being "in your face" & bright, so never went there. But again, many music pros recommend the more expensive models
    • ATC SCM12 Pro's: They're passive, so you have to spring for an amp. I found a gently used pair for $1,100; also a gently used powerful class D amp (Wyred4Sound ST-500). DAMN!! These things are amazing. Very high resolution, insane dynamics & bass for a 2-way (you almost don't need a sub). They're sealed/acoustic suspension, my favorite design in 2-ways. If I was a music pro I would jump all over these. The "musical truth" doesn't have to razor your ears off, and these don't do that.
    I like the ATCs so much that I fantasize about getting the consumer-model w/same drivers + significantly larger internal volume, the SCM19s. But they're silly money (just under $4K new, ~$3K used).

    PS: I've heard a few metal tweeters, never liked them.
    PS-2: (almost forgot to mention this) The ATCs do a very rare trick: they sound terrific at very low volumes, basically the same as they do at higher volumes--just lower. I've only heard 1 or 2 speakers of any kind in decades that can do this. Not sure if it signifies any special design quality--but it's very important for my particular listening pattern (99% low volume classical as background/mood music in my home office).
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2021
  16. hooligan

    hooligan New

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    never surprised to see more ATC love :):)

    what i esp love abt the sealed ATC's is how honest the low end is. slow roll off. makes everything gel better. never heard a comment about the low volume timbrel similarity but it doesn't surprise me. ATC is as tight as it gets. engineers need to ref at multiple levels.

    SCM20ASL was always a consideration for me as well. i have heard various ATC models in passing at various studios throughout life but never too critically or in my own space.

    the pelonises are, purportedly, at this level of quality. may just have to get some and report back.
    they're a bit of a cult following and the designer didn't make too many. low key guy. i've exchanged emails w him. it's a dual-concentric situation. he had the drivers specially manufactured from tannoy to much tighter tolerances than what they have ever offered (he says). impressions seem to reflect this. "zero phase hash" "just dry and complete" "uncanny"

    i realize this is second hand, fairly low quality info, so i'll refrain from going further, but the impressions i've seen from across the net (some from some sources who's ears i definitely trust, real professionals) are intriguing.
     
  17. SineDave

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    Popping in to say i'm still loving my ATC SCM-19's here, powered by a 1500WPC D-Sonic amp. I've tried other amps, but this combo is just too good.

    The chain I settled on is a RPi running RopieeeXL feeding a Modius, with a Freya+ preamp and the D-Sonic M3a-3000S amp.
     
  18. limesoft

    limesoft Friend

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    I'm the opposite - I've always found ATC to require higher volume to wake their bass, at lower volumes I found they kind of disappear and sound thin. I had ATC actives (10L model)..
     
  19. limesoft

    limesoft Friend

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    I recently got the Neumann KH120 - in comparison to my genelec 8330, I think the KH120s are in a higher tier. I've had long experience using Gennys from 8020/8030 to now their GLM dsp line - I've liked their sound and look but I always struggled mixing on them - it never made sense to me why as they sounded good, but I realise that there's kind of a hifi diffuse sound to them that sort of beautifies everything + their bass is a bit more boomy; they have a good vibe to them for listening but ultimately I don't think they are technically as high performing as they should be.

    I also find they interact terribly with a room more so than other monitors thus requiring significant room treatment (GLM correction helps in that sense). Their bass can be difficult to control in untreated rooms.

    * The Neumanns better them in all these cases: Much more direct sound, with less room interaction - they sound similar when on desk (raised up a bit), vs on speaker stands.

    * They are less diffuse sounding, with less hifi vibe - more direct in their delivery with less mush between instruments, and I can more easily hear the different characteristics of individual tracks - one song will be very obviously bass light/compressed, another one much more dynamic etc - almost like hearing different speakers with every track change.

    * There is a touch of sweetness in the mids and treble - they are less fatiguing. The Genelecs have a slightly metallic tinge to their treble which I dislike.

    * They are dryer and attack/decay is faster (remind me of my ATCs).

    * Imaging is very good similar to the Genelecs, maybe not as massive sounding but accurate and 3d.

    * I wish for more sub bass but it's still very competitive for a 5inch. Would have been nice if they offered a sub bass boost switch for SPL sacrifice like Dynaudio do for their Lyd.

    Overall very pleased, they're excellent, not fatiguing and honest monitors, one of the best sounding practical 5 inchers i've tried - I will be getting rid of my Genelecs and buying the Neumann DSP sub in the future for the room correction.
     
  20. Pharmaboy

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    I can only guess the reason somehow related to your ATCs being active & mine being passive? Though nothing about that jumps to mind as an easy explanation...
     

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