Nearfields for audiophile listening?

Discussion in 'Speakers' started by sashafuckinggrey, Feb 27, 2016.

  1. Thad E Ginathom

    Thad E Ginathom Friend

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    Thanks. (Amazing how people comment on sound, over internet media! But that's another story.)

    I suppose, in our historical van, they must have competed for space with lots of other equipment, and might have been jammed in with stuff like your shop setup. But books might be kinder to the sound than boxes of electronics.

    I have hears a vintage pair, powered by even older vintage Quad pre/power amps --- but it was a long time ago. I only remember that the experience was pleasing :)
     
  2. Inoculator

    Inoculator Friend

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    They are for sure a pretty niche speaker, and they require careful placement and gear pairing (especially amp), but I really can't imagine a better more natural and "big" sounding speaker for a small space. As long as you are ok with not even a hint of sub-bass extension, they are amazing. On the bass front, I have no complaints for a small space/nearfield setup, really anything more would be too suffocating in my little office. They have a bit of a bump at 150hz, which makes them feel more bass competent than they really are, a clever trick. Here is the frequency response for my particular pair:

    [​IMG]

    All that being said, $3k is not cheap for a minimonitor speaker, so you really have to commit to building around these speakers. I luckily was able to take advantage of some good USD to Euro exchange rates at the start of the pandemic last year and snag a barely used pair for a little less than half price shipped. I think if paying full price, and if my room was not so small, I absolutely would spring for the Graham Chartwell LS6 instead. Similar tonality and natural midrange magic, but with a more modern take on bass response.
     
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  3. SineDave

    SineDave Friend

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    I noticed upon dusting my ATC SCM19's that the cabinet is quite hollow/reverberant on the sidewalls. Just to see if it helps any, I've ordered some NoRez from GR Research and plan to apply to the sidewalls on both speakers to see if it has any positive impact
     
  4. ergopower

    ergopower Friend

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    I'll be interested in what you hear. A lot of British speaker companies use cabinet resonance to get to their desired sound signature, or maybe timbre. Kind of like the strings are the transducers but the violin body shapes the sound.
    AudioNote sells drivers and crossovers, but IIRC, they warn you won't approach their finished speakers because you won't have the same cabinet response that they have refined over the years.
     
  5. Pharmaboy

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    That's weird. My SCM12 Pros are a different shape than the SCM19 passives: these are plain boxes w/no curves, not even any front-screens (plain-jane studio monitors that happen to sound amazing). I just had them cranked today...no resonance in these cabinets.

    ??
     
  6. Pharmaboy

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    UPDATE: Purchased a pair of KEF 103.2s that had their crossovers redone by a technician (capacitors replaced & function checked/restored to KEF factory spec). Picking them up Sunday.

    It will be most interesting to hear these large sealed/acoustic suspension 2-ways on this desktop in the locations the ATCs are holding down now. I know sealed designs sound better here--but the KEFs are 19 liters in volume vs ATCs @12 liters; and an 8" mid/woofer vs 6" (though in truth both drivers in the ATCs are Herculean in build & sonic capability).
     
  7. SineDave

    SineDave Friend

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    I wouldn't say they are resonant per se, but the knock test is definitely a "fail".

    Here's a video of me knocking on one of them (turn on sound): https://imgur.com/a/YTDE15Z
     
  8. rlow

    rlow A happy woofer

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    According to this review and measurements, it shouldn’t be an issue.

    http://www.avmentor.net/reviews/2016/atc_scm19_2.shtml
    Being that ATC is super well respected in studio monitors I can’t see resonance being a problem with these. Part of the reason why the use of curved sides on the cabinet is to reduce internal standing waves, and thereby reduce some of the need for internal bracing (also done for aesthetic reasons). I believe the “knock test” from the outside of the cabinet, although I’m sure is somewhat indicative of a potential issue, is a rather imprecise way of determining if there will be audible problems or not.

    Edit: Also note that by adding NoRez, you are also potentially affecting/reducing the internal cabinet volume, and since this is a sealed design, the size may have been precisely tuned by ATC and you may actually affect the frequency response of the speaker. However I’m not 100% sure how the NoRez stuff works of affects this type of thing. There is also likely some existing internal damping material, so will you remove that or leave it as well?
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2021
  9. SineDave

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    I left the internal damping material, which is a black rockwool type batting - and added No-Rez to the sidewalls. It's easy enough to "undo" if I don't like it, but so far the impressions from my side are that they sound about the same.
     
  10. SineDave

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    Alright, a few more hours (~8) of listening in, and I think the No-Rez did make a subtle positive difference. The stereo image is just a tad tighter and instrument separation seems better on my demo playlist. Not sure it was worth the money, but at least I got to verify first hand just how F*(^ing heavy the ATC drivers are..
     
  11. Pharmaboy

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    Here's another way of saying how heavy the ATC drivers are:
    • I just got the vintage KEF 103.2s in the office. These are 19 liters in volume (vs ATCs @12 liters) 5" taller, 1.5" wider and 1/2 inches deeper
    • Yet each ATC weighs something like 1.5X each KEF.
    • Almost all that weight in the large magnet structures of the drivers
    Haven't installed the KEFs yet. Will do so in next day or so.
     
  12. Armaegis

    Armaegis Friend

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    You went in through the driver side I assume?
     
  13. SineDave

    SineDave Friend

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    Yes, I pulled the midrange drivers and installed through the driver cutout by cutting into ~11x8" pieces. Took a little work to squeeze each piece into the cabinet but the results is almost full coverage of sidewalls and rear of the cabinet behind the tweeter/MR.
     
  14. ergopower

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    This seems like the default thread for smaller stereo speakers, so:
    I'd like to put some sound in the basement for when I'm on the treadmill or doing some strength training.
    I have used a Riva Turbo X for this purpose, but it isn't loud enough to just sit in one spot and cover maybe a 3m/10' x 5m/15' space
    Speakers would be hung from joists and angled down.
    So not 'audiophile' but not something that I'll always wish I spent more on.
    Edit: pretty sensitive to excessive mid-bass that destroys male voices, and excessive brightness (think DT880)
    Use would be almost entirely Spotify from phone or tablet, so Bluetooth a must. Powered speakers would be the easy setup, no screwing around with amp. I have a subwoofer I can throw at this, so a simple way to integrate is a big bonus.
    Edit: neither a separate Bluetooth receiver nor amp is out of the question if there's something great out there, maybe classic studio monitor used?
    Looking around, one that ticks all the boxes is Klipsch R-51PM. I don't mind spending $350. Aluminum tweeter, though.
    Couple of others on Amazon, Edifier and Audio Engine. I recall Vanatoo and maybe another brand got some decent reviews here?
    What would you go for considering my usage case?
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2021
  15. Pharmaboy

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    My desktop speaker experiment is complete:
    • The ATC SCM12 Pro's are out of the system
    • Replaced by a vintage pair of KEF 103.2s (large sealed 2-ways w/8" mid/woofer). The crossovers of this pair have been updated with new capacitors w/in design spec.
    Did a lot of listening in past couple days--everything from typical low-volume classical to head-banging reggae & electronica. Here's what I find:
    1. The KEFs sound very good at low volume--bass & dynamics aren't absent at low volumes as they are w/many speakers. The ATCs take the low-volume race by a nose, but it's pretty close.
    2. The KEFs sound f'ing AMAZING at high volumes. They're vintage British speakers, the kind many use for classical or vocal recital music: here I am pounding them w/AfroPop, Brazilian, Reggae, Steely Dan. I threw everything I had at them & they gave it right back:
      • Mid-bass really pounds when the music has content there. I'm talking punch-in-the-gut feeling (they cross over @70 Hz to a sub, so it's really mid-bass I'm hearing)
      • Tone & instrumental timbre are really fine. The KEFs are not bright or forced in the least, but they get large & loud when I need that
    I had no real expectation of success here. These speakers are 33-34 years old, borderline too large for the desktop, and pretty obviously weren't made w/nearfield listening in mind. Regardless--they kill in this application. This whole project is kind of obsessive & crazy...yet it works.

    P1010388 - Copy.JPG

    P1010392 - Copy.JPG
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2021
  16. yunie_

    yunie_ Acquaintance

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    Do you have some isolation pad or something? I can't stand seeing the speakers placed on the table. It severely alter the sound of the speakers
     
  17. Thad E Ginathom

    Thad E Ginathom Friend

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    Maybe. If one can feel the table vibrating, then that vibration may be interfering with the sound. On the other hand, those speakers are placed quite far back on a clean, smooth surface (the exact opposite of my desktop!) so reflections are likely to be a culprit.

    But my number one rule for self and advising others is: don't fret about fixing problems you haven't got. If it sounds good, it is good.
     
  18. Armaegis

    Armaegis Friend

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    Stacking books underneath bookshelf speakers is the standard cheap method. Usually on a desktop I'm more concerned with angling the speakers up to point towards my ears.
     
  19. Pharmaboy

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    I've run desktop systems in this home office for ~20 years. I've had 6 or 7 different pairs of speakers or powered monitors; 3 subs, and many hardware changes. I find 2 often-related problems happen w/speakers set on a reflective desktop:
    1. Bass bounce: It's the same as floor bounce with floorstanders, but perhaps more noticeable because of the nearfield application; also the fact that the mid/woofer of the average 2-way bookshelf speaker/monitor used in desktop applications is relatively close to the bottom of the enclosure, thus just a few inches from the desktop. I don't find this to be a major problem, though the mid-bass can blur a little if it's happening big-time
    2. Vibrating speakers: If the speaker has significant low-and mid-bass capability, it might vibrate at higher volumes (not visible vibration), such that some of the energy of the mid-woofer gets cancelled by the vibration. IMO this might be a bigger problem than the 1st, but as with all such things, it depends solely on the specific speakers in question.
    I got in the habit of using Aurales MoPads under larger desktop monitors in recent years--as a preventive measure. The last 2-3 monitors I've had could really bring the bass (even w/bass below ~70 Hz diverted to the sub), so I thought it best to provide them a bit more height + isolation, which is what these pads do.

    Ironically, my latest speaker adventure involves large 2-3 ways (KEF 103.2s) that are too wide to safely place on the Mopads. So I'm doing w/o isolation. So far the sound is strikingly good, including the mid-bass. That may have something to do with an 8" mid/woofer (largest I've had here) + the greater height of these monitors, meaning the mid/woofers are ~5" above the desktop. So now I'm at the "don't fix it if it ain't broke" part of this journey...

    https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/prod...OPAD1_MoPAD_Monitor_Isolation.html?ap=y&smp=y

    PS - This comment doesn't touch on other major variables in the desktop/speaker interface, including room size; space between backs of speakers & back wall; whether the speakers are designed as ported vs sealed/acoustic suspension; and whether the speakers are heavily damped (via thickness & materials of the case, plus any internal bracing/isolation materials).
     
  20. Armaegis

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