Gustard X16 SABRE DAC

Discussion in 'Digital: DACs, USB converters, decrapifiers' started by RedFuneral, Mar 11, 2021.

  1. RedFuneral

    RedFuneral Facebook Friend

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    The Gustard X16 is a new Sabre DAC using 2x the new Sabre chip ES9068AS(I believe this is the replacement for the ES9038K2M based on what little literature I could find on it.)

    https://imgur.com/a/KOln5eM (I couldn't get this working embedded.)

    For professional pictures & specifications: https://shenzhenaudio.com/products/...cessor-oled-screen-high-performance-audio-dac


    Why did I buy this? I enjoy trying various DAC implementations & Sabre DACs have always been a blindspot of mine. This DAC was in my price range and was using a new chip(there aren't many affordable Sabre DACs out there that inspire much confidence.) Also most of the R2R/NOS DACs I've owned have been in this price range and I felt I wouldn't be giving S/D the proper chance to impress continuing to buy budget DACs. I'm generally skeptical of Chi-Fi but I just didn't see anyone else playing with new Sabre chips at a price I was willing to pay. I'm always willing to question prior experience given enough incentive(I didn't like early Schiit but same deal; they consistently stood out as a company putting out new/interesting things and my opinion changed over time.)


    What did I use for testing or what have I owned recently enough to compare to? Amp wise I'm using the Schiit Asgard 3 & a La Figaro 332C. Headphone wise I'm currently exclusive with the Audeze LCD2C Closed. DAC wise.. my favorite DACs have been the Ultra-Fi DAC41 & Metrum Flint, both NOS DACs. Since selling those some years ago I've been looking for something which checks the same boxes while fulfilling a certain 'need for speed' which they couldn't quite master. While I haven't owned any other DACs in what must be 6+ months those familiar with my posting history will know I've chosen a peculiar hill to die on: The Realktek 1220VB codec in my PC is better than modern budget S/D DACs. This should be seen in the context that up until now all the affordable DACs I've tried have been AKM based. Likewise I'd NEVER pick the Realtek over the R2R DACs I've heard(The above NOS DACs & the Soekris 1321) despite any technical shortcomings. I've exclusively listened with the SE out & the filters are similar enough with this X16 not to comment on them.


    As per comparisons I feel comfortable making: I can directly compare to my Realtek codec & have strong memory of how the JDS OL & SMSL M300 sounded. I can make some comment on the NOS DACs I've enjoyed & why I enjoyed them. Finally I have a generalized memory of a couple pricy S/D DACs I played with half a decade ago which shared some similarities.(Questlye CAS192 & Exogal Comet.) In the quest of brevity I'm going to try and keep my impressions brief.. I mention these components to open myself up to questions.​


    First Impressions(AKA New Toy Syndrome): A few days after taking ownership of this DAC I was set to come here & post glowing impressions. My immediate impressions were of a clean DAC with significantly higher speed than anything I've owned before(Amazingly impressive for someone who mostly listens to breakneak speed metal music.) It came with the realization that I may have never truly owned a system tuned for ultimate clarity & delineation. I generally have always had something vintage, NOS, or smooth in my chain. I mean I still do with the Schiit Asgard 3 I've been testing with but this DAC cut through in low-gain operation. This takes me to my other early impression; the DAC enwidened the differences between the gain settings of the Asgard 3; high-gain now sounded slow & bloated with a distinct treble roll-off(where'd the cymbals go?) The X16 + A3 on low-gain sounds clean & neutral to me with an overall tightness(dryness?) but I'm sure a measurement focused amp could move it more in this direction if desired.
    The La Figaro OTL & the X16 are not a good combo, the 332C OTL has more treble than the Asgard 3 at any gain setting and has the tendency to come off strident & unrefined. Lower in the range it takes the worst of the Asgard 3 at high-gain an intensifies it.. it's overall slow & raw sounding. I've done little listening with this combo.

    In summary my early impression was of clarity, tightness, and speed. This DAC has none of the fruitiness(tonal color + density + gloss?) which has previously annoyed me with the pricier S/D DACs I've owned. There is no bass or low-mid bump(something I detest if not blended in well with the rest of the FR.) There's nothing fatiguing or boosted about the high ranges either despite a complete lack of roll-off or smoothing. As I said to begin with my first impressions are that this is the best S/D DAC I've had ears on so far as raw technical performance goes. It strikes me much like a many times distilled vodka, pure & unflavored. Drink it straight or mix it, just be aware that it's easy to dilute out of the picture.


    Current Impressions(A month+ into ownership) I haven't had any desire to switch away from this DAC since I put it into the system but decided today that I should at least A/B it with the Realtek before I write about it. My immediate thoughts... there are going to be people who can't tell these apart in an A/B comparison. Likewise there's going to be gear that blurs the difference(Hello La Figaro or Audio Technica R70x for a headphone equivalent.) How can this be when I've so strongly preferred the Realtek over various other external DACs & then took such a strong immediate liking to the Gustard X16?

    Let me take a moment to rant about 'Velvet Sound.' I have a history of enjoying gear which I would describe as sounding velvety, by which I mean smooth & matte.. low fatigue factor without getting too wet. It was only natural that I fell for the marketing which used a word I myself like using for audial description. AKM's interpretation of velvet is wildly different, to summarize in three descriptors: Bloated, Bright, Glossy. The AKM DACs don't sound even remotely neutral to me, regardless of how they measure the sound is reminiscent of a strong V curve like you'd find in an 80s stereo tuned for nothing but glam metal & glittery pop hits. They don't sound right on anything with strings; the blunted transients of AKM strip instruments of their bite(while adding their own air region bright filter over the music.) Truth be told most of my frustration comes from the fact that it could be an enjoyable sound(maybe a kind of relaxed NOS-esque sound) if it was coherent. The thick warm low-range combined with the super sparkly & vast high range is the least coherent tuning I've heard in my decade plus listening to gear.​

    How this is relevant to my above point about the X16 & Realtek being more similar on quick A/B swapping is the fact that they both share a similar FR, perceived neutrality. It's the details which set them apart & not the general tuning. You won't mistake the Realtek or Gustard for either an AKM nor an R2R. That being said I do actually notice on longer listening sessions that the treble comes through clearer and more unique with the Gustard(synths have a more distinct timbre in symphonic metal.) Likewise I don't notice the treble differences between the Asgard's gain settings with the Realtek; en fact the only difference I notice with the Realtek is one of forward momentum(high gain sounds more forward.) This is the first hint that the Realtek is at a much lower quality level than the X16.

    Perhaps the most important thing I discovered in today's gear swapping: I don't want to listen to the Realtek for more than 1-2 songs in a row. It fatigues, it imparts the same roughness to the Asgard 3 that the 332C has regardless of source. The Gustard lacks this fatigue factor even with the poorest masters(90% of my music collection should be considered low-fi, there's a reason I don't comment much on soundstaging, dynamics, timbre, or most traditional audiophile terms... they don't tend to exist for me unless the gear is adding them. The Gustard isn't an adding machine.)

    What else is there to say? I feel like I've already written a novel about a DAC that I don't feel is doing much(maybe because this is a first for my ears.) I suppose that following my immediate glowing impressions I've started to realize this DAC lacks it's own kind of glow.. no inner-warmth or dynamic tricks as I enjoyed with my old favorites. No relaxation factor. I don't know how I feel about this considering the nature of my music library, I think I may prefer something which distracts from poor mastering or with tricks that enhance simpler music(I don't think I've listened to any ambient since acquiring the X16. It's also cut short my dungeon/winter-synth exploring, genres which are stylized around old cassette player distortions.) This is to say while I can't pick apart any flaws of this Gustard I'm myself a touch bored that it's not so polarizing and not taking chances(or stances) on how music should sound. Maybe I'm too much in this for a gear but a DAC without a story or a philosophy just rings a little hollow to me.


    Conclusion? I'm afraid not. This is my first real Sabre DAC & I just don't have enough relevant experience with modern mid-fi S/D DACs to pass much in the way of judgements. I feel like it's worth the asking price of $500 much as I felt the Metrum Flint was worth a similar value based on SQ in isolation.. but the elephant in the room is that there may be a $300, $200, or even $100 DAC out there that does the same thing for less. I'm pretty confident in saying it won't be an AKM DAC that'll do it based on prior experience but that still leaves a good section of the market unheard. If you insist on a linear power supply, a remote/BT/preamp/balanced out(or any of the other features I haven't mentioned,) or this specific form factor/color combo which stacks well with Schiit gear then there may be enough there for it to become a good value.. I just simply don't know. Fortunately this isn't a forum where people demand to know if they should or shouldn't buy something.

    My thoughts in summary: The Gustard is a strong reference point to what a technically competent DAC should sound like. Being a prolific gear swapper I'm prepared to award it the highest compliment that I can offer.. I'm not going to be selling it until I have something I prefer in house. I intend to keep this here to keep me honest when comparing gear, to remind me of how my music sounds with each note properly separated and resolved. Personally I walk a bit of a tightrope where on one side most of my music is fast and blurs on less competent(or vintage type) gear but its also generally low-fi and I appreciate gear which commits sins of commission in an effort to smooth out flaws & aid in all day listenability. This is perhaps why I never truly step off the gear roundabout.. although I can say my setup as stands with the Gustard X16, Schiit Asgard 3, and Audeze LCD2C Closed has taken any rush out of my search for the next purchase; this system as it stands is less of a shining star and more of a friend who never gets on your nerves. It keeps up with my fastest music & allows me to listen all day tuning in & out without irritation. My curiosity demands that I try again a measurement focused amp but it'll happen in due time, it may well turn out to be too much of the same. Knowing the general taste of this forum I feel this a good point to end on; while I've yet to test it I strongly suspect the X16 will be too dry/tight/sterile.. possibly even polite in the wrong system for someone who prefers tubes, hybrids, or R2R in their chain. While the Asgard 3 moderates this it still may pull too far toward the modern side of sound for some people. Still I think it's an interesting counterpoint to the denser, ballsier, shinier, and more relaxed sounds out there.
     
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  2. Raimei Templar

    Raimei Templar Friend

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    I also find the Sabre and Realtek (Cirrus Logic as well) chips to be quite similar to each other in terms of sound. They both do staging and transients in a very similar manner to the point I think many people wont be able to tell them apart if they aren't paying attention. As you say though the Realtek tends to be annoying and kind of unnatural sounding when compared to a standalone dac. I always find it has kind of fakey air tone to it not unlike the effect you find on bad early 90s digital masterings, makes the treble sound unclean and fake .I spent a lot of time trying to convince myself the Realtek sounded just as good as a stand alone dac but I was never able to successfully deceive myself unfortunately. Really wanted to!

    The older Sabre dacs tended to be very aggressive sounding with quite sharp annoying transients (listening to a song like Could you Bite the Hand by Steve Conte/Yoko Kanno on a typical Sabre 9018 dac was PAINFUL) but the modern ones have toned it down. The Topping Sabre Stuff (D50) specifically is a little sterile sounding, but sounds like this one is a better implementation (or that new chip is better perhaps).

    AKM chips are definitely the most different than the rest of modern D/S and it wasnt until the Modius and even more so the JNOG that I found one I really liked, though Modi was not terrible either. I find it amusing to see so many of the ULTRA SUPER AMAZING measurement dacs using the AKM chips because I personally wouldnt recommend them to anyone who is doing any kind of mixing or mastering as I find the Sabre/CS based things to be more "neutral" in general.
     
  3. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    ^ Works because of synergy. The Asgard 3 is warm and mellow, even soft. The LCD2C has a recession in the upper mids and lower highs. Gustard X16 to the rescue. The last thing I would touch with this amp and headphone combo is NOS DACs. Now I would be curious if the X16 would cause me to go insane if it were matched with Jot 2 and HD600.

    On AKM: depends upon which generation, which chip, and which implementation. In the current generation, it's the low end AKM chips have that maligned Velvet sound with the depressed mids, blended lows, and soft attacks. At the low-middle, only Geshelli JNOG and Modius (balanced out only) get it right. Topping somehow makes the both the low and high end AKM chips sound lean with nasty highs. The prior generation AKMs were pretty awesome - not the most resolving, but resolving enough.
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2021
  4. EagleWings

    EagleWings Friend

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    AKM4497 implementation can be amazing, when done well, like the Cayin N8. Full bodied, dynamic, punchy, resolving and free from velvetness, veil and treble nasties. I have been wanting to try a D90, just to see how they dropped the ball. I was hoping that Schiit would come out with a 4497-equipped Gungnir DS2. But after the AKM factory fire, my hope went up in smokes as well.
     
  5. RedFuneral

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    I suspect you're right, and as much as I have previously enjoyed NOS DACs my ownership of them has zero overlap with either the Asgard 3 or LCD2CB.

    As I stated in my review I suspect the X16 would come off as sterile to anyone whose ears are adjusted for R2R or boutique SD. It has strong macrodynamics when the recording does but does NOT have that overall dynamism or unspoken energy generally associated with high-end DACs. I'm actually surprised how much it has shifted the Asgard 3 away from warm + bold without touching the mellowness, something which I require to enjoy the Audeze. With the wrong choice of amp this setup would become as I complained about with the Schiit Heresy, too tactile and 'home theatre like.'

    To put my impressions more into perspective: My favorite systems have always mixed timing coherence(quasi-speed) with a smoother bloomier euphony. Think vintage STAX or Ultrasone ED12(from a higher OI amp) strapped to NOS DACs. My current setup with the Audeze was put together because I needed closed and wanted that upper-mid/high recession Purr1n mentioned; I tend to pick electronics that reduce the other Audeze traits which aren't to my preference. The question I asked buying the Gustard was if the Asgard 3 was too much a course correction; the answer is that I think I may actually appreciate something more smooth/relaxed and that I am willing to give up the speed for it.

    Addition: The X16 has a certain solidity of note to it that isn't my preference(perhaps why I don't think it works for ambient music.) However as I'm trying out genres which make up less of my listening time I'm finding it's quite good for electronic & classical music. Listening to a particularly well recorded bit of atonal classical the solidity gives proper mass & body to the simple instrumentals whereas the accurate macrodynamics add impact to the dissonant notes. This combination of proper tonal weight & transient strike are unique in my audio memory, it's just unfortunate(for me) that it relies on listening to well mastered recordings. (https://roamreleases.bandcamp.com/album/the-unit-of-crystal)
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2021
  6. RedFuneral

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    Thoughts on this DAC with a Drop THX amp vs the Asgard 3 can be found here: here: https://www.superbestaudiofriends.o...tinuity-output-stage.8228/page-14#post-353132

    In short summary I find the THX amp to have superior synergy to the X16 than did the Asgard, I actually don't see the Asgard as a great match as it doesn't allow either component to showcase its strong suit. I also find the Gustard just fine with a brighter cleaner amp; there is a certain calmness to this combo that keeps it from being fatiguing.



    On the topic of calmness I've discovered something fascinating if not unique about the Gustard X16(or Sabre 9068), it's NOS mode. Previously I thought this did nothing only to realize today that it doesn't apply the setting until you close the menu. The NOS mode on this DAC has a perfect impulse response & a lack of aliasing! What it does have in trade is the most treble roll-off I've ever seen in a component, but this was corrected with EQ in 5 minutes time*. This came out on a Head-Fi thread here: https://www.head-fi.org/threads/gustard-x16-mqa-dac.954547/page-7

    Since my post there testing for audible aliasing(I lack the tools for objective measurement) I've been listening to music and my early impressions are that this DAC has been taken to an entirely new level. I'm hearing the good traits of NOS: effortlessness, 3D staging, liquidity, and legibility of individual notes in busy music. I'm NOT hearing any added tonal density, warmth, or low bass roll-off. This is the polar opposite of the AKM 'super-slow' NOS mimic which I found at best slightly reduced listening fatigue while exhibiting all the downsides of NOS. This is the best I've heard S/D sound. This might be the combination of modern transparency & NOS effortlessness I've been searching for.

    * TANSTAFL You knew there had to be a catch. It takes a strong EQ to bring the treble back up to near-neutral levels. +36db @ 20k to be exact. Doing this digitally has forced me to take on a -20db preamp setting to avoid clipping & I'm sure it'll adjust itself lower if I happen to play anything that's actually using the top end of the range. I've had to switch my Drop THX ONE to its highest gain and I'm still in the upper end of the volume range. Safe to say this solution isn't going to work for everyone. I'm assuming I'm tossing bits using digital EQ & even moving to an analog EQ like the Schiit Loki/Lokius wouldn't fully remove the digital EQ dependency if you wanted to fully restore the high end(+18db @ 15khz, +36db @ 20khz!)
     
  7. mrflibble

    mrflibble Friend

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    Some thoughts and impressions about the Gustard X16 DAC. I have been hesitant in posting them. I will preface this by saying that I think the X16 is a very good DAC and probably suitable for the majority of people but ultimately, is not for me.

    Background: I am very treble sensitive and am currently trying out various DACs in the hope of finding one that I can live with. My requirements are "neutral" sounding (without bad treble), small form factor (Bifrost 2 size or not much larger).

    I took receipt of Gustard X16 a number of weeks ago. It arrived on the same day I returned an RME ADI-2 DAC (ESS). I was therefore not able to perform a direct comparision, but the treble characteristics of the RME were still fresh in my mind. This post is essentially concerned with the treble of the X16 both in isolation and compared to the RME. These are my personal subjective opinions and will likely differ from someone else's perceptions.

    The initial audio chain setup with the X16 remained the same as that used with the RME:

    Laptop -> iFI iGalvanic3 -> DAC -> Arcam rHead | Schiit Magni 3+ -> HD650 (stock cable).

    The X16 was initially set to the L-FAST filter (linear phase, fast rolloff) and NOS disabled.

    I wrote some brief notes when the X16 first arrived. Some of the things I wrote (about the general sound presentation) relative to the RME I am not so confident about because it has been awhile since I wrote them: The X16 is a bit "thicker" than the RME, X16 is not as "tight" as the RME, X16 has more body than the RME.

    What I am more confident about is the treble, I remember this well. The treble of the X16 is *much* less objectionable than the RME, in my opinion. It has less edge and is a much easier listen. However, there is still a hint of treble nasties. I read elsewhere on this forum the ESS treble being described as "sizzle", and I think this is an accurate description. I do not like the "sizzle".

    Unfortunately, I still can't live with the treble. However, some music is less problematic than others. I have discovered and tried various things that affected the treble - some helped, whilst others made the treble issue more apparent. Nothing totally fixed the treble for me. The methods for lowering the treble did just that, but they do not change the fundamental treble characteristic.

    Things that helped:

    Using NOS lowers the treble, but I did not like the sound of the DAC with NOS enabled - too dull and rolled off
    Using the M-SLOW filter (minimum phase slow rolloff) - this was particularly noticeable on blu ray / DVD, less so on music
    Parametric EQ to lower the treble
    Using the Hifiman Sundara instead of the Sennheiser HD650 - Sundara is less resolving and less bright to my ears (possibly a controversial opinion)
    Using Arcam rHead - a softer, warmer, more relaxed amp

    Things that made it worse:

    Using a Custom Cans after-market cable in place of the stock cable - the cable is more revealing
    Using Schiit Magni 3+ - a more neutral amp (more aggressive and sharp compared to rHead)

    Maybe I could use some of the above in combination, e.g. M-SLOW filter without after-market cable. But I want to use my fancy cables and I would just be mitigating the treble sizzle not fixing it.

    Both the RME and the X16 make me feel ill after awhile (some music being worse than others) causing mild migraine symptoms (upset stomach and headache), it takes me 24 hours or so to fully recover. The effect of the RME was more obvious so I could stop before it became too much of a problem. Whereas I find the X16 to be less obvious and therefore more insidious - I don't notice it is making me feel ill until it is too late. I don't think the X16 treble would be a problem for a "normal" person.

    I think the X16 is a great DAC, great build, balanced sound, well priced. It is just that I obviously have a problem when it comes to treble. I am definitely very sensitive.
     
  8. Vansen

    Vansen Gear Master (retiring)

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    I’ve been listening to this DAC off and on while I work for the last 18 months. Overall, it can be can be good sounding DAC, but it sounds wildly different based on the selected combo of inputs/ outputs. Some combinations sound okay, but stay away from USB. The sound quality between Balanced and SE is larger than I am used to, but SE doesn’t suck per se, just stick with balanced if you can.

    • USB has a narrow soundstage with a smeared presence to everything
    • SE seems to have more dynamic compression and tonal wonkiness than balanced
    • USB + SE = a very bad experience for me
    • Moving over to Coax and Balanced really helped “balance" things out a bit
      • You get a much better imaging and dynamic on Coax + Balanced than USB or SE
    • I’m not a fan of Sabre DAC and not a fan of most AKM Velvet DACs. As others have stated, this does not have a lot of that Sabre glare that the Sabre lineup is used to. While this DAC has other shortcomings, Sabre glare is not one of them. It’s more balanced on the tonal aspect on than other Sabre DACs, but can still have a little edge to it. I’d complain about other thing long before complaining about typical Sabre tonal characteristics. For a DAC with an ESS chip, I’m surprised it’s still sitting on my desk a year later.
    • I need a new DAC for my two-channel system, which has a 25-ish year old Assemblage DAC-1 holding on by a thread. Next to the Assemblage when on Coax and SE, that dynamic compression is apparent with and the Assemblage gets swapped back in after a few songs.
    Other Thoughts
    • There are a lot issues with this DACs ability to play both MQA material and non-MQA24 bit material over USB and Coax on MacOS and linux.
      • I have to limit my X16 to 16 bits, maybe that’s what the 16 in X16 is for.
    • This DAC has issues playing MQA material at 96 khz with a 24 bit depth. I have to disable MQA because of this
      • I think it sounds better without MQA, so disabling this is not an issue for me.
    • This has a lot of bells and whistles that I’ll never use in a DAC and I would prefer a focus on firmware reliability rather than extra features.
    • I have more notes on the sound and issues with bit-depth that are worth going into in the future, but I need to scroll through my notes on this one, which are stuck in text message form right now.
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2022

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