The vintage Ortho thread

Discussion in 'Headphones' started by gurubhai, Jun 24, 2016.

  1. spoony

    spoony Spooky

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    There's a type of material I've success in many mods to absorb back-wave treble:

    [​IMG]

    Cosmetic pads made of very dense open-cell foam. Here's a link to an example.
    If you use a lot of it you even get some reinforcement in the upper mids with certain orthos.
     
  2. Philimon

    Philimon Friend

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    "Here's a link to an example." -spoony
    Ordering. Gracias.

    I'll try mod5 and report impressions though not much hope. I think now sealing vents is just a bad idea. Way worse ability for back pressure to escape where it just has the one vent at headband connector. Semi-porous material better. I remember now when I sealed up T10 it sounded more closed-in and worse.

    edit: makeup pads arrive thursday, so probably friday measurements
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2021
  3. spoony

    spoony Spooky

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    Por nada, hopefully they will help with your efforts. Right now I'm not using it in my T10 mod because a full pad rose the 3 KHz region a bit much, but I haven't played with smaller quantities, I was trying to solve the pad issue before.
     
  4. Philimon

    Philimon Friend

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    YH2 mod6 vs mod2.jpg
    Didn't try listening to mod5. Redid mod2 but used an extra foam layer instead of micropore for air seal. Measures similarly but sounds a smidge more warm with this setup (probably from varied levels of seal from foam compacting denser in tighter areas and lighter in others). Discrepancies between the two mod measurements are small and can be from headphone positioning. Subjectively, no longer intolerably bass light compared to mod2, treble a little peaky. Underdamped turns Electric Wizard fuzzy bass guitar into static, damped turns fuzzy bass guitar into chainsaw.
     
  5. Philimon

    Philimon Friend

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  6. Philimon

    Philimon Friend

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    I just got offered a Fostex T30 at a fantastic price. Awesome phone. Driver is on the larger side.

    @takato14 impressions and measurements.
    @waulta thread.

    The few impression Ive seen so far mention the T30 as having a particularly difficult enclosure to deal with vs T50. If I fail modding (i will) then someone please volunteer to try or Ill request or sell to someone willing to go to the efforts and share.

    YH-2 currently is treble peaky and too much so. Twang on guitar can pierce. Hopefully make up pads works. Or @rhythmdevils mod will fix. Maybe I can start YH-1 in mean time.
     
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2021
  7. Philimon

    Philimon Friend

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    [​IMG]
    60mm diameter driver. T50 is same diameter but not same driver. This one is mylar and uses lower grade magnets vs T50. <- edit: still researching
     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2021
  8. rhythmdevils

    rhythmdevils MOT: rhythmdevils audio

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    The is is very smart (as usual except for your political views :p)

    I actually started out with iems that were neutral to warm - the EDC3 and B400 but I got a Schiit Loki to use with my 789 amp so I could compensate for the impedance curve without using ieMatch which destroys resolution and dynamics and well everything. It could be that over time I’ve used the Loki to tweak them to be linear but upward tilting like these headphones measure because BA bass sucks and the Solaris bass is kinda loose and both get better bass quality with less bass. At the same time I found the Gaudio Nair to be the most neutral iem I’ve ever heard as was the consensus among all experienced iem users so that kind of ruins that theory.

    But I’ve had my speakers playing for about a week now and there has been definite recallibration. For the first hour they sounded rolled off and bassy but I quickly have fallen back into their perfect FR and tonality. I’m slowly returning my orthos but trying not to listen to headphones too much. I’ve made all of them much bassier with less treble. I haven’t tackled the Yamahas yet I need some new materials which I’ve ordered. One of the same materials I used in my last Yamaha mods.

    I will start by using Philmon as a volunteer guinea pig and sending him a re-tuned YH1 and HP1a.
     
  9. Philimon

    Philimon Friend

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    Last attempt at T10 mods.:
    1. Remove grill. Im learning for vintage ortho that air suppression > air blocking. A closed seal is not required because driver distance + leather(?) pads means I dont have to worry about rear wave cancellation so much. A porous seal will pressurize air enough for damping driver plus benefit of less reflection and easier escape for excess energy etc.
    The grill I learned is not metal. Its soft plastic with a texture similar to fishing line. Reminded me of transpore. I took a photo side-by-side.

    2. Damping. Felt sealed with micropore tape directly on driver rear. Then light density open foam and felt in back of cup. I do not know if this is more or less damping than stock. Stock is wool disc and open foam.

    Measured poorly and sounds bad. All shrill and no thrill. I tried before/after with pad riser. I don't think seal was broken.

    Reasons to dislike T10: Small fit, uncomfortable particularly with these thin pads that are of too small diameter to cover entire front baffle which also makes it difficult to measure on EARS rig. I also cant get over the vintage orthos like T10 with thick grills and small holes scattered for sound to get through. Dont know how much difference it makes but it bothers me knowing its there. 3D printed baffles would be awesome.

    [​IMG]

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    edit: In conclusion I am better at arts and crafts than headphone modding.
    next: YH-1 then T30. YH-2 will revisit after some new materials arrive.
     
  10. Philimon

    Philimon Friend

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    In case you're interested in T10 driver but with possibly better fit, I introduce to you the Kenwood KH-83.:
    [​IMG]
    (not mine)
     
  11. rhythmdevils

    rhythmdevils MOT: rhythmdevils audio

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    Oooh take off the micropore tape that’s your problem. Terrible driver damping material it’s super dense. You don’t necessarily need to seal the felt to the driver if you have felt to keep it firmly against the driver. If you want extra damping of the driver use a ring of rubber cement around the driver edge to seal the felt to the driver so air pressure can’t escape through the side and all air pressure must pass through the felt.
     
  12. Philimon

    Philimon Friend

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    Thank you for the advice. I will definitely be relying more on pre-exisisting mods in the future (yh-1 @rd). Make alterations as fun experiments and to get a better feel for why the mods. T10 is dbel’s now though.
     
  13. Philimon

    Philimon Friend

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    [​IMG]

    Setting mod baseline (besides stock). Seated driver with butyl. Will replace with sorbothane in future. Removed all damping.

    Not bad just like YH-2. Relaxed warm sound. About as clear sounding as YH-2 stock (good condition, smooth chamfered hole magnet). And a lot more clear than my previous YH-2 which was in poor condition and I think had the common driver version (sintered, would need to go back and look at pics to verify). The big drivers do give a bigger soundstage, but most importanly bass sounds more enveloping. Not sure if ear pad hole size is the same, but the pads are larger overall which should make getting measurements easier. Unfortunately my headband adjuster is broken. A rubberband holds it in place but I can see the adjuster already coming completely apart as I set for head time then EARS time. I will need to source another HP/YH-1. Please let me know if you have one for sale or for lend.

    T30 and some new mod materials should arrive this weekend. Ive been given some tips in ortho round up (damping, reflection, and resonance). Next, the YH-1 will get the basic treatment, felt and foam.
     
  14. Philimon

    Philimon Friend

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    I didn't try too hard to get seal with right side. I just wanted to make sure I got good on left. Will try better next round. The pads are in okay condition. I think the makeup pads arrive today so. Stock measurements are somewhere back in thread.
    YH-1 blank.jpg
    edit: right side has the broken adjuster
     
  15. Philimon

    Philimon Friend

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    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    This is an easily available and cheap foam: makeup pad. High density, high bounce. Even though I was warned against micropore I used it to hold foam in place and maintain seal (I had bought a box of this stuff thinking it was going to get used a lot for ortho mods). This was too much damping. Removing the sealing tape would help and I bet the foam is thick enough to compress itself in place. Will try without tape next. Thanks @spoony for the tip.

    I wonder which is better: a uniform damping along entire driver, or an uneven and vented damping. Coupled open foam (like above) vs semi-coupled open foam (tape removed and foam sitting loosely with some gaps particularly around wiring).

    Does too high of density foam reflect?

    YH-1 mp+mup.jpg
    *mp = micropore, mup = makeup pad
    Just noticed the highs imbalance. I'll check to see if that was there in previous measurements.
    I have more foams of different densities on the way ordered from Foam Factory (awareness of such a thing due to @Hands) and Mcmaster Carr (this one due to @E_Schaaf).

    edit: Subjectively bass just seemed light, mid forward sound, highs not killer. Obvious increased texture in voices and dimension to drums. I listened for 30seconds to one song.
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2021
  16. spoony

    spoony Spooky

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    Yep, that's a lot of damping, you could sandwich a more 'breathable' material like stiff felt between the foam and the driver, or just have a partial cover. The T10 responded less dramatically to the excessive damping but I got a peak @ 3 KHz, did not repeat with holes or less coverage, however, that kind of foam does dissipate a lot of energy in my experience.

    Edit: Highs do look smoother.
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2021
  17. Philimon

    Philimon Friend

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    Foam factory has a lot of specs for their foams including density and airflow. I only chose by density and chose a variety from 2-15lbs. Guess I'll later look for foams of same density but different airflow ratings to test.
     
  18. spoony

    spoony Spooky

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    That's promising, the challenge is cutting them up if the piece is thicker than you need.
     
  19. Philimon

    Philimon Friend

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    I've been ordering them in their narrowest width which is typically 1/2".

    I think airflow is probably most pertinent in this application (damping by limiting airflow). I've been choosing based on density because I assumed it's directly correlated to airflow. But I see how you could have two densities that have different airflow based on the construction of the foam. Just like how you have open-foam and closed-foam, maybe one is semi-closed, etc. I'll look at what I ordered already and get some stuff with different airflows. Density I guess would be important to absorption? I've seen melamine foam advertised for upper frequency control like 10kHz.
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2021
  20. Philimon

    Philimon Friend

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    Screen Shot 2021-04-15 at 6.31.33 PM.png
    Included all foam that had a airflow rating under open-foams.

    As reference "speaker" looks like speaker grill foam.

    Mcmaster Carr has a wider selection but no airflow specs. Maybe there is more but wasn't looking in the right places at Factory Foam.

    Edit: Not huge variations here except for a couple. Mcmaster had a much wider array of stuff. I probably didnt see all the selection at factory foam. I'll look again..

    edit2: another spec ppi (pores per inch) probably important
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2021

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