LTS Headphones Project thread - Freely accessible modular headphone platforms

Discussion in 'Headphones' started by Tomislav_L, Dec 3, 2020.

?

If you're interested in this project, how would you most likely make use of it?

  1. I'd like to build my headphones from scratch, by manufacturing and sourcing all parts on my own.

    5 vote(s)
    6.3%
  2. I'd like to modify the current designs and then manufacture the modified parts on my own.

    10 vote(s)
    12.5%
  3. I'd like to build my headphones using a DIY kit that only contains passive 3D printed or CNC parts.

    11 vote(s)
    13.8%
  4. I'd like to build my headphones out of a DIY kit that already contains all required parts.

    48 vote(s)
    60.0%
  5. I'd like to have headphones custom-built for me.

    34 vote(s)
    42.5%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. Tomislav_L

    Tomislav_L Almost "Made"

    Contributor
    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2020
    Likes Received:
    299
    Trophy Points:
    53
    Location:
    Croatia
    All right, as planned and promised, the V3 model is now officially released and available for order, and the first production cycle will start sometime next week.

    I've also decided to take a few photos of some of the V3 Prototype parts. Note that these are just prototype parts, so they're printed at lower resolution, with cheaper materials, haven't been post-processed at all, and all the mechanical details like hinges are simplified for the sake of cost reduction while prototyping. So, obviously the final built headphones will look much better, with the same level of quality and attention to detail as the V2 above.

    What matters are the designs of the internals, which is what changed from the previous version of the V3. The V3 now also features the Peerless 50mm driver by default, but since the front and rear driver holder components are removable, they can be redesigned and any 40 to 50mm size driver can be fitted to these headphones, without having to mess with the rest of the headphone's design, so headphones offer the same level of affordable modular potential as the V2's. Filter frames are removable as well.

    Below you can see the MJF PA12 outer cup shell, which has been slightly redesigned (the sizes of side openings are slightly different, but hard to notice without side-by-side comparisons. Some additional internal weight saving measures applied, with unnecessary material eliminated, and the way the cup attaches to the baffle is now different, with tighter tolerances than before, and without actually having the need to ever remove the cup shell once it's in place unless the headphones are being entirely disassembled. Drivers can now be removed and replaced without having to remove the outer cup shell like before, that's the biggest and most important difference as far as this part goes.

    [​IMG]

    You can see the rear driver holder part here, with the spider-like structure, specifically designed for each driver to maximize the contact area between the rear side of the driver and the driver holder. This component is extremely rigid and molded to the shape of the driver accurately for a tight fit between them, so it provides a great amount of stability to the driver itself, while not interfering with the ports on the back of the driver, since the openings on the driver holder are designed to match the ports on the driver. You can see on the picture on the right that the fit between the baffle and the driver holder is very tight, it presses into position and sits there securely, and then the driver gets sandwiched between the cup shell, rear driver holder and the baffle on one side, and the front driver holder on the other side, resulting in an extremely tight package.

    [​IMG]

    Filter frames and the front driver holder. The driver holder also pushes onto the little notches sticking out of the filter frame to stabilize it and press it tightly into the baffle, so there's no gaps between the baffle and the filter frames.

    [​IMG]

    Driver holder fitted and screwed into place. There's no dust filter mesh on this driver holder, I didn't bother gluing it on since it makes no difference to the sound at all, but obviously the built headphones will have it, just like on the V2.

    [​IMG]

    And this is the outside of the cup, obviously all black plastic without any processing, and there's no logo engraved on the stainless steel plate either. That's to come on the finished model. Also interesting to see below how transparent the cup actually is when I shine light through it, it's very opened and airy. It's also worth mentioning that behind the driver, under the outer grill, various acoustic filters can be placed to help with sound tuning, and damping materials can be placed into the chamber itself, and glued onto the chamber walls. More on that when the production builds start.

    [​IMG]

    This headphone is a bit more complex internally as you can see, with more parts, that are more massive, complex and more expensive to 3D print, so the cost of production is some 15-20% higher than for the V2 both because the parts themselves cost more, and there's also extra work to do compared to the V2, like cutting and fitting the grills, meshes, having the logo plates laser cut and engraved, the assembly itself is more tricky with parts having to be fitted in a specific order, etc.

    Once I start building the V3's then I'll post some pictures of the final builds, but expect the same or better attention to detail and quality as from the V2. Conversion kits for V2 --> V3 and V3 --> V2 will also be available, as everything other than the cup assemblies themselves (and some parts of the cup assemblies like drivers and connectors) is interchangeable on the two models.
     
    • Epic Epic x 8
    • Like Like x 7
    • List
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2021
  2. Walderstorn

    Walderstorn Friend

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2016
    Likes Received:
    1,904
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Europe
    That driver mounting is really fantastic. Have you decided on the prices, leading times and whatnot? I am assuming the ones from the website are updated but wanted to be sure.
     
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2021
  3. Tomislav_L

    Tomislav_L Almost "Made"

    Contributor
    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2020
    Likes Received:
    299
    Trophy Points:
    53
    Location:
    Croatia

    Yep, the pricing and leading times on the website are updated and current.
     
  4. Tomislav_L

    Tomislav_L Almost "Made"

    Contributor
    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2020
    Likes Received:
    299
    Trophy Points:
    53
    Location:
    Croatia
    Just letting everyone know that I've slowly started the transition into using the LTS Headphones name for the project, as that's the name and logo the series production headphones carry and new models will carry in the future. So in case any of the social media or website links don't work in the following days, it's because I'm updating the domains, so just make sure to change the LTA to LTS anywhere in their links to open up the refreshed domains. LTA will remain on the more DIY oriented parts of the project. I've already updated the links in the main post in this threat.
     
  5. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

    Staff Member Pyrate BWC
    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2015
    Likes Received:
    89,778
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Padre Island CC TX
    Now that is sexy along with all the tuning options. I need to get myself one of these.
     
  6. k4rstar

    k4rstar Britney fan club president

    Pyrate BWC
    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2016
    Likes Received:
    6,942
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Toronto, Canada
    @Tomislav_L that looks amazing, I love the Imperial tie fighter look

    any chance you could update the website with specifications? mainly impedance and sensitivity of the V3 model is what I am curious about, I could not find it on your website or this thread but perhaps I missed it
     
  7. Tomislav_L

    Tomislav_L Almost "Made"

    Contributor
    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2020
    Likes Received:
    299
    Trophy Points:
    53
    Location:
    Croatia

    I'll update that, I'm currently actually working on rearranging a few things on the website to kinda make a clearer difference between all the past prototypes and previous projects, and the current headphones that are actually in production, as now it can get a bit confusing. I'm even thinking about making an entire new website dedicated just to the production headphones.

    But V3 has the same driver as the V2, so it's 32 ohms and the driver spec sheet just says 98 db for sensitivity, they don't really specify the units properly, but the headphones aren't very hard to drive, probably a touch more power hungry than something like a HD600/650, but nothing extreme.

    Also, funny but I never looked at the design as a Imperial tie fighter, but now that you said it, I see what you mean. Although the part around the driver grill curving and thinning out to the back of the cup has a bit of Star Trek Enterprise-D in it's shape too. :)
     
  8. Tomislav_L

    Tomislav_L Almost "Made"

    Contributor
    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2020
    Likes Received:
    299
    Trophy Points:
    53
    Location:
    Croatia
    They look nice now, but wait until you see them post-processed and prettied up a bit with some brushed metal pieces added to them. ;)
     
  9. Walderstorn

    Walderstorn Friend

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2016
    Likes Received:
    1,904
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Europe
    For some reason i thought they were 600. By coincidence (or maybe not) i always had more luck, in the HPs i had, with the >ohm ones and that's why i was trying to convince you with the hd800 drivers but this seems to be a very well planned project.

    I will take this one for the team,since you (and other distinguished members) are in the US @purr1n , and i will let other interested members know how it goes, since this may benefit all of us at SBAF,
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Epic Epic x 1
    • List
    Last edited: May 2, 2021
  10. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

    Staff Member Pyrate BWC
    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2015
    Likes Received:
    89,778
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Padre Island CC TX
    I ordered the V3 for the SBAF loaner program.
     
    • Like Like x 7
    • Epic Epic x 3
    • List
  11. Tomislav_L

    Tomislav_L Almost "Made"

    Contributor
    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2020
    Likes Received:
    299
    Trophy Points:
    53
    Location:
    Croatia

    Just received notice, that's awesome, thank you! Hopefully as many people as possible will get a chance to try them out and share their impressions and suggestions.
     
  12. Walderstorn

    Walderstorn Friend

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2016
    Likes Received:
    1,904
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Europe
    I did the same. We'll see if i will manage another EU SBAF loaner program.
     
  13. 7seven

    7seven Acquaintance

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2018
    Likes Received:
    56
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Location:
    Ireland
    The cheap aliexpress velours on my V2 are becoming compressed and driver holder is starting to touch my ears, but they deserve some high quality pads.

    IME changing to a different pad material (or even changing from stock pads) in a HP is not a good idea, some specifics might improve but often the overall tuning and balance sounds messed up.
    The V2 doesn't really have a stock pad (maybe Tomislav's T1.2 pad preference could be considered the 'stock' choice) so no real reason to stick with velours.

    I have been considering the mechanism of the pads sound wise and what might be best for performance.
    The filter frame effects the lower end tuning of the V2 in a similar way to the pads, but the filter frame and acoustic mesh are designed to be as linear as possible in it's effect.
    Since we have full control over baffle filter wouldn't it make sense to tune the frame around a very low loss pad (e.g non-perforated sheepskin)?

    Obviously it would only be linear relative to the driver's response, which itself is not perfectly linear, but if you were able to smooth out some small scale dips and peaks in a response caused by pads (which may be difficult or impossible to measure) maybe this could lead to an improvement in sound...?

    Probably nonsense theory but I have always wanted to try sheepskin pad for feel and comfort anyway so might just give it a try.

    I did notice, surprisingly, that in the V2 pad measurements the brainwavz velour and sheepskin are pretty much identical in the low end, the idea that velour is a more lossy than sheepskin at lower frequencies could be completely wrong. It could be more reflective than velour at higher frequencies aswell.

    Sorry... this post ended up way longer that it should have been.

    Edit-It looks like it is typical to align headphone measurement graphs at 1khz, I dont understand this practice (you lose the baseline) but that explains the trend of sheepskin pads 'reducing' highs rather than boosting lows.
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2021
  14. Tomislav_L

    Tomislav_L Almost "Made"

    Contributor
    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2020
    Likes Received:
    299
    Trophy Points:
    53
    Location:
    Croatia


    Yep, they do need good quality pads, not just for sound and comfort, but for durability as well. That's why I picked something as solid as the T1 pads to be stock ones and to which I tuned the stock filter frames, driver distance and baffle depth, since they're tried and tested, and they don't change shape over time much, and the little shape change that does take place, is taken into account already.

    As for materials, the difference between sheepskin and velour for example is not as big as you'd expect in terms of losses, it's not like the velour material is entirely transparent, it still seals pretty well, it just reflects differently compared to the sheepskin pads. As you can see on the graphs where I compared various Brainwavz pads, the difference in bass is like 6-7 db between Sheepskin and Velour or Hybrid pads, or the Beyerdynamic T1 pads. That's influenced by the amount of leakage the pads introduce, so while some pads leak more, it's not a massive night or day difference. However, you'll see there are bigger differences in the highs when comparing leather to velour. The advantage of not using sheepskin pads is the fact that velour doesn't mess with the highs as much, Sheepskin pads lead to a big dip in the highs and overall sound darker and a bit congested. So for example, using the Sheepskin pads, and then tuning the filter frames to a certain leakage amount in order to get the correct amount of bass, would still leave you with those dips and issues in the highs which you can't control with the filter frame tuning. So it's better to use pads that behave nicely up top, and then control the bottom end with filter frames. You're right that filter frames control the tuning in a very linear way, but remember, they have an effect only to a certain frequency. Above 2000-2500 Hz, they don't have much effect at all, and what goes on depends more on the pads than the frames. But, if you don't mind the darker top end when using Sheepskin pads, give them a go, they're worth a try.

    Another reason to not use low loss pads is the fact that when you do use them, you depend very much on the seal of the pad around the ear. If the seal is broken and not perfect, and you've tuned the filter frame for a sheepskin pad that's sealed perfectly, then any break in that seal messes with the sound a lot and you get huge bass losses. A perfect example of such a headphone is the old AKG K550, which either had tons of bass or no bass at all depending on how you put the headphone on your head, or whether you wore glasses for example and they broke the pad seal. That's why in general it's better to use pads that are at least slightly transparent, like Velour or some perforated material, so when and if the seal is broken a tiny bit (as in, pressure between the pads and head is lower at some points and allows some leakage, not as in, the seal is broken and there's a hole between the pad and the head, in that case it doesn't matter what material the pad is made of), the effect of that imperfect seal is maybe gonna be a drop of 2-3 db in the low end, and not 10 or 15 db. It's just easier to work with, leads to better results, and is less sensitive to how you wear the headphone.

    BUT, and this is crucial, it has to be real fabric. Some "velour" pads on cheaper headphones, or cheaper pads you find on the market, aren't actually velour, or whatever material they market it as, but just literally thin rubber lined with a velour-like material on one side. Such pads look like they're velour or microfiber, but aren't, and are entirely non-transparent, because the other side of that "velour" or "microfiber" material is just rubber, so the pad acts more like a low loss pad that entirely depends on the seal, like a leather pad would, and the material on such pads doesn't breathe, and doesn't allow the foam inside the pads to be an active part of the system. At that point, you may as well just use leather pads instead. On the other hand, Beyerdynamic or other high quality fabric pads are actually transparent, and the material breathes, allowing the foam inside the pad as well to take part in determining acoustic properties.

    Again, I'd recommend the T1 gen.2 pads, I've tried and tested many of them, and while the T1 pads aren't absolutely perfect in all regards, IMHO they're the best I've tried overall when all things are taken into consideration.
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Epic Epic x 2
    • List
    Last edited: May 19, 2021
  15. 7seven

    7seven Acquaintance

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2018
    Likes Received:
    56
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Location:
    Ireland
    Great points, the sensitivity to seal and changes over time are a big deal I hadn't considered.

    I could also imagine the outer material on the pad wouldn't make much difference if a foam with very low permeability was used inside.
     
  16. 7seven

    7seven Acquaintance

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2018
    Likes Received:
    56
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Location:
    Ireland
    You can get knock off dynamat on aliexpress and since it was pretty cheap I picked some up to try the dynamat mod for hd650 and experiment in other ways.

    I applied dynamat liberally to the back of LTA V2, with the idea that too much cant hurt, one channel first to better gauge what it was doing.
    The changes were tiny (I guess a testament to CFP and V2's design), but what I detected was slightly tighter but harsher. I did not think it could make it harsher so, since one half was already done, it was applied to other channel for tiny improvement to tightness.

    A clear benefit was gained from adding it to the magnet cover on the back of the driver itself, this is something I would recommend doing but make sure not to block any of the holes.
    V3 looks to have have similarly added extra bracing to back of magnet, I can imagine there are a lot of others small optimisations like this in V3.

    Adding dynamat to HD650 I noticed similar effect to V2, the effects were also very slight, more benefit than v2, but still definitely some harshness (I did not remove the spider and apply it to the magnet).

    How could dynamat make it sound worse?
    Looking into speaker enclosure design gave some clues about the complex effects taking place.
    Adding mass, which dynamat does, lowers resonant frequency of material, increasing stiffness raises it.
    All the mass in dynamat comes from the putty, with thin foil providing stiffness, safe to say mass is being increased very disproportionally to stiffness with dynamat.
    The actual purpose of dynamat is to provide good damping, which it does appear to be doing (tightness).

    There is school of thought in enclosure design that it better to keep resonant frequency of material as high as possible, that is using materials with lowest mass and highest stiffness (carbon fibre, ceramics etc.). because music (generally) contains less energy at higher frequencies , therefore high frequency resonances are less likely to be excited.
    So dynamat is providing resonance damping but at the same moving them down to a frequency where it could be more of issue or more audible, for CF plastic used in V2 that could mean resonances mostly in high treble/ultrasonics are being pushed into audible range, half-fixing a problem that never existed...
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2021
  17. Tomislav_L

    Tomislav_L Almost "Made"

    Contributor
    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2020
    Likes Received:
    299
    Trophy Points:
    53
    Location:
    Croatia
    Yep, you want the component to be very stiff and not too heavy (not too light either), there's a fine balance to be found, and when using carbon fiber reinforced plastic, it isn't too difficult to find that balance and there isn't too much benefit to using dynamat or similar materials on the actual baffles. As for the driver in isolation, on the V2, which doesn't have the magnet surface of the driver additionally supported, adding some damping material to it could lead to benefits depending on what you want to achieve, but on the V3, there won't even be any need (or room) for that, since the magnet will be directly supported from behind by a very rigid driver holder CFRP component, which doesn't just add mass to the magnet like dynamat would, but actually makes the entire driver holder + body of the driver system more rigid.

    Yea, you can sort of look at the difference between the V2 and V3 in terms of how the driver is secured in place in that the V2 secures the driver by primarily "clamping" the side surfaces of the driver body (like virtually every headphone) and a bit of extra on the rear side near the side edges of the driver, whereas the V3 also additionally "clamps" and supports the entire rear surface of the driver, including the back of the magnet, so there's a larger contact area between the body of the driver and the very stiff driver holder structure, which adds small benefits. Not night and day of course, because it's not like the driver body in isolation is flimsy (at least in this case), this driver is already quite well made and rigid, but it's still a benefit nonetheless when comparing the V2 vs. V3 driver mounting style.
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2021
  18. santoshmanivannan

    santoshmanivannan New

    Joined:
    May 25, 2021
    Likes Received:
    14
    Trophy Points:
    3
    Location:
    India
    Thanks for this amazing project @Tomislav_L ! Just something I noticed on your yourube video, The link leads to a different website and when I checked the URL, it's ltaheadphones.weebly instead of ltsheadphones.weebly. Apologies if you've already mentioned this somewhere on this thread.
     
  19. Tomislav_L

    Tomislav_L Almost "Made"

    Contributor
    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2020
    Likes Received:
    299
    Trophy Points:
    53
    Location:
    Croatia
    Hey, appreciate the kind words. Yep, the website URL's changed to from lta to lts, but I probably missed some of the links on Youtube, I'll double check and fix. Thanks for the heads up. I haven't exactly been very active on Youtube for quite a while because I've been very busy offline, and in general it's kind of not been worth the time to spend like 20 hours per video and then get 30 views in a two months... that Youtube algorithm, gotta love it. o_O
     
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2021
  20. Tomislav_L

    Tomislav_L Almost "Made"

    Contributor
    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2020
    Likes Received:
    299
    Trophy Points:
    53
    Location:
    Croatia
    Just a little update, I've finally made a decision to change the supplier for the carbon fiber reinforced parts, and now for the latest builds, and the future ones, I'm having carbon fiber reinforced parts printed in Germany instead of in the UK. Same exact material, same printers used for production, same tolerances, the parts are identical. The relevant change is that it's gonna cut down production times of headphones by 2 weeks on average so I'll be able to build headphones a bit more quickly, this is the case for all models.

    Previously, printing parts in the UK made them 35-40% cheaper than in Germany, but it would take on average 3-4 weeks to have them printed (instead of 2 weeks in Germany) + shipping time, so it was worth the extra wait to reduce costs for literally identical parts. However, after the UK left the EU, things started getting complicated, as since then all the shipments coming from the UK into EU started being subject to extra taxes and customs duties, which to be fair, weren't always applied at first (since the official stance towards Brexit was that each member country of the EU would decide whether they'd treat shipments from the UK differently than before). However, it still added an extra week or so to the shipping times because packages were still being being imported into the EU and had to go through customs, inspections, etc. This was still fine because the cost savings were still significant. However, now the latest regulation in my country makes all shipments from the UK subject to tax and customs duties, and now on top of the extra waiting, with all the extra duties and taxes, the final difference in price between parts made in Germany and in the UK is about 10%, and I'd rather not deal with customs, all the extra paperwork, etc. for such small savings, so I've made a decision to have parts made in Germany from now on even if they are a bit more expensive. A bit of politics, but it's an improvement for future builds as it's gonna cut down on waiting times.
     

Share This Page