Merv's Politically Incorrect Audio Blog

Discussion in 'SBAF Blogs' started by purr1n, Dec 26, 2018.

  1. Jerry

    Jerry Friend

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    Mahatma Gandhi: The world has enough for everyone's need, but not everyone's greed
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2021
  2. HHS

    HHS Almost "Made"

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    I guess first let's be clear on our understanding of poverty here. I understand that to mean not having consistent, reliable means to fulfill one's basic needs, i.e. not knowing you'll have shelter, food, clothing, clean water, heat, a reasonable level of physical safety on a continuous basis in the present or future.

    I see no reason that state of being can't be virtually eliminated (no solution is going to be 100%). I certainly don't see any laws of the universe against providing that for everyone, I fully believe we have the means as a society if we make the collective decision to use them appropriately.

    That doesn't mean ending class stratification, there can still be people that possess a lot more than other people without there being abject poverty, and that definitely doesn't mean ending all forms of suffering of course, though we should try to mitigate those we can.

    That it is easier to escape poverty in the US than in many other countries (I'm not sure I buy the "any") doesn't preclude us making it even easier. And notably, making it easier to escape poverty means making society better for everyone, not just the people escaping poverty.
     
  3. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    In Taiwan, poverty has almost been eradicated like polio. I'm dead serious. The solution is very much cultural, i.e. "families must take care of their own or your name will be shamed", "do not let the village idiot wander the streets aimlessly because this brings shame to the village", "take care of your aging parents or everyone will think you are an anus", etc. These cultural values and attitudes of course impact government policy.

    I can't see this happening the USA.

    The USA has a much more heterogeneous population than countries like Taiwan or Norway, also another country with a low poverty rate. There is not as much feeling as "we're all in the boat" and more every man, woman, and child for themselves. Norway is awaiting the day when their oil and gas wealth runs out. Taiwan is awaiting the day when China launches missiles as a prelude to invasion.

    The USA is also more competitive, more based on meritocracy than egalitarian principles. This has both benefits and drawbacks:

    It's not only easier to escape poverty in the USA. It's also much easier to be successful and climb the ladder. In the 60s and 70s, Taiwan was a very poor country. My dad was dirt poor: the I walked 6 km to school - with no shoes story. Or when he was able to afford shoes, he didn't want to wear them because that would have made him stand out because other kids didn't have any.

    But he had the brains and was able to go Georgia Tech for a post-graduate education. He worked as a engineer in Toronto for a while then moved the family to the USA, to Silicon Valley where Racal Vadic was pushing the boundaries with modems (ooooh 1200 baud). No chance in hell he would have been as successful in Taiwan. Probably the same deal with my good friend @ultrabike, also a signals engineer like my dad, except he's the Mexican version today.

    From a immigrant's point of it, it easy to go from zero to a something, a good something, in one third of a lifetime in the USA. Others sacrifice themselves for their kids, so they can get a good education or learn a trade, so they can move ahead. Many immigrants when they see people on the streets think: What the F is wrong with you? Seriously, when I was back in El Lay, my Sri Lankan friend and I as we drove out to lunch would shake our heads. Being poor or out on the street in the USA is utterly unfathomable for anyone from a poor immigrant family who sold all their belongings to immigrate here.

    Getting back to the cultural aspects - these events were years ago when money was tighter - examples of differences:

    I was planning a family trip to Taiwan. My folks in Taiwan (mother's side) are very well off. Put it this way: my cousins were never extravagant, but they never had to work like me. Plane tickets and lodging for a family of four aren't exact cheap. Knowing that I was a working stiff and had a young family to take care of, and quite excited that we were visiting from so far away, they (meaning several of my uncles and aunts) foot the entire bill. To do any less would have been an embarrassment on their part.

    My cousin, driving his small BMW SUV hit two girls on a moped. This was in Taiwan. It was the girls' fault. However, he settled with the girls on paying part of the bill for their injuries (broken leg) simply because he had more means. For more wealthy people, this is often the better course of action than saying F you, it's your fault - because you don't want the girls' parents, boyfriends or whoever to come knocking on your door with a crowbar.

    In-laws were planning a get together as Disney. I'm like F this shit, kids would have preferred Universal. But hey, it's family, And my wife's brother's family was TOTALLY in Disney - so I'm just F'd. We had to negotiate down to an acceptable hotel "world" or whatever at Disney World so we could all be together, buy a meal plan, and only pay for three days of fun park instead of the four that everyone else got. Do you think we got any help? This despite her brother's wife being a physician, maybe possibly getting millions once she sold her equity in the practice (they offered this tidbit of info), and he always talking about his private equity into Uber, or how family is the most important thing in the world, etc. Do I fault my brother in-law? Nope, not at all. It's the American way.

    A new element that leads to poverty in the USA: Healthcare.

    The problem with healthcare in the USA is cost. It's not availability. Oh, it's available. It's cost. The reason it's so expensive is because people do not want to die or call it quits when it's time. Maybe once upon a time they knew, like John Wayne in the Shootist. But Americans cannot stand to lose lost causes and will do anything possible to beat them, including travelling to the end of the world. We can't allow stuff like heart lung transplants if we want affordable insurance.

    LOL, the organ donation rate in Taiwan is downright abysmal. My dad has even said: screw that. I'd rather die than get an organ transplant. Besides, getting a matching organ is downright impossible. Attitudes like this however do wonders for keeping the cost of health insurance down. Also Taiwanese eat a ton of leafy greens. I recall my grandmother making at least 22 different kinds of greens growing up. In USA, it's lettuce (does not count really), spinach, and cabbage. In the South, we get more: collard and mustard greens. Maybe add kale and chard. Pretty sure greens with limited portions of meat works better than sugar, fat, and Lipitor when it comes to all sorts of old people diseases.

    Yes, maybe we can eliminate poverty in the USA if there were more people like you, me, @rhythmdevils, @crenca, @zerodeefex, heck most if not all SBAF members, where those in positions of having more, freely give. However, this ain't the case. Last time I checked Gates Foundation coffers, they were pretty tight with their money. Buffet likes to talk the talk (about this secretary being taxed more than he), but is happy keeping it all to himself. (Secret: those guys are so internally poor).
     
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  4. crenca

    crenca Friend

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    It's 101 basic human nature. Greed (and anger, laziness, untruthfulness/shame, lust, gluttony, murder, etc.) are just basic facts of the human landscape - individually, familial, communally, culturally/sociatal, governmentally, etc.

    No offense @HHS , but have you thought about what has made you blind to such an obvious aspect of humanity? Only late modern Progressives (and it must be capitalized like any other religion) have a faith in a systemic "fix" to basic human nature.

    I suspect a near zero elimination can only last for so long, as circumstances will sooner or later catch up.
     
  5. HHS

    HHS Almost "Made"

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    I do very much think a lot of how we choose to tackle (or not tackle) poverty is cultural and that a big cultural shift would be necessary before we make any real headway. That's an uphill battle, not an impossibility though.

    I don't think human nature is immutable. This isn't the same as being blind to the current failings of humanity.
     
  6. crenca

    crenca Friend

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    Excellent point. The immutability of human nature, whether in "hard" form (most of our Greco-Roman philosophical/anthropological heritage, Islam, Judaism - heck most religious/philosophical anthropology every thought of by any peoples) or "soft" form (Christianity, some but not all strains of Classical Liberal philo) is again just taken as fact - undeniable with all the overwhelming evidence.

    As someone of the Progressive faith, would you not say that human nature is at least "persistent" and "stubborn"? What time period would you say that human nature changes over, and is said change always in one direction?
     
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  7. HHS

    HHS Almost "Made"

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    Stubborn is a good way to put it. It's hard to say what time period would be required, and change wouldn't always be in one direction, but I think whatever our evolved, biological inclinations are in terms of our nature I think it is always possible invent new ways of thinking that can override and reshape at least some aspects of our nature as a species.

    I think the invention of modern science is an example of that. Our nature strongly inclines us toward magical thinking and drawing unchangeable conclusions based on first impressions. It is actually painful for our brains to admit that we're wrong about some things. This should be incompatible with a scientific method that requires that we be able to prove our ideas wrong if they are wrong, so in a way science is something humanity invented as a mechanism to override our nature.

    Of course this hasn't transformed human nature as a whole, partially because our application of science is spotty and inconsistent, partially because there are probably problems with science as we invented it, but I think it is at least an indication that it is possible to address failings in human nature through the invention of new ways to think.

    It's possible for me to imagine that just like we found a way to curb our nature to always fall back on magical thinking, we could find a way to more meaningfully extend our empathy beyond our in-group or address our tendency toward greed and thus better commit ourselves to doing something like ending poverty
     
  8. Merrick

    Merrick A lidless ear

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    Those are aspects of human nature, but there are many other aspects too. Selflessness, sharing, pro-social cooperation, etc etc are all aspects of human nature as well. Funny how when people discuss systems of human interaction, they tend to argue that the traits we view as negative are immutable and baked into the system, but the traits we view as positive are somehow not present.

    The fact is that human nature is extraordinarily broad and deep, and any system of human interaction will exhibit virtually every aspect of human nature over time. However, it’s a mistake to argue that systems represent all of human nature equally in every time and place, in every circumstance, etc. American culture is largely founded on English Protestant breakaways who were too hardline for the Church of England. The idea that work and success are inherently tied to your moral worth sprung from these groups and is a foundational aspect of American culture. Much of our discussion of “handouts” comes from this idea that being poor is indicative of a moral failing, and it’s an idea the rich have been all too happy to nurture.

    Systems reflect human nature but are not human nature. And just as human nature runs a gamut, so can a system. We can choose to shift the focus of the system to appeal to the better aspects of our nature instead of assuming that the most negative traits will always predominate.
     
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  9. Thad E Ginathom

    Thad E Ginathom Friend

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    As far as my mother country is concerned, those who are supposed to want me to think this way have given it up themselves. cv Labour Party.

    I don't have any specific dogma, or pet methodology of making the world a fairer place, but I don't think it helps when the Labour party dumps its socialist principles.
    Wait... I'll check today's Prime offers....<browses> Oh, right: lockdown here anyway. Only essentials can be delivered.

    I think there's an understanding, if not a definition, of poor pay and conditions. A couple of hundred years ago, it gave rise to the British political party that I mock above.
     
  10. crenca

    crenca Friend

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    Your post is a wonderful and honest explication of the Progressive faith @HHS ! One of (if not the) founding prophet of your faith, Francis Bacon agreed with you in part (see his New Atlantis), though he had a grasp that methodological materialism presupposes the immutability of Nature (or nature(s) plural, as in human nature). How can you observe, hypothesize, study, test, and replicate findings if there is no stable thing (nature) to interrogate in the first place? He assumed not only the immutability of nature and human nature, but he thought a technocratic progress could still be had, with the good and bad aspects of our nature "contained" as it were through the discipline of methodological materialism and the comfort/prosperity it would bring. You might say he was a realistic optimist - an optimist with a plan.

    Just over three centuries later scientists such as Albert Einstein were noting that yes indeed there had been real technological progress, but it had had no real effect in the "moral" sphere, and indeed might be retrograde in that it tends to hide our failings and even empower them - nuclear bombs in the hands of a humanity (a nature) which is the same as it ever was, or at least the same for a stubbornly long time. The optimism of Bacon turned out to be naïve.

    I would even say the majority opinion (i.e. all of humanities thought/tradition) - stable (human or any other) through time that has as part of its nature these failings (termed "sin" by Christians) - is less "magical" (i.e. more observationally correct) than the Progressive assertion that "thinking" proceeds Reality and the Real. This is a strongly Cartesian assertion, where psychology is privileged over the Real and nature as such, one that Einstein and others studiously avoid because everything they do hinges on the notion that nature(s) are real.

    It's like @Merrick observes, humanity certainly has positive aspects (even virtue) as part of its nature, it's just that psychological "commitment" is not enough - necessary but not sufficient. There are these other aspects of our nature that just exist and are always there, and corrupt our best laid plans for technocratic, moral, or any other kind of utopia.
     
  11. Merrick

    Merrick A lidless ear

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    None of us should be reaching for utopia. But it’s silly to argue that this is the best we can do. Progress can and does happen but it requires people to commit, take effort, and make the choice to value it. And while some people will always find ways to take advantage of a system, they shouldn’t be made the rule as we have done with the super rich.
     
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  12. crenca

    crenca Friend

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    The opposite also happens as well. Relatively well off and stable societies/cultures collapse. Around the year 500 cities in southern Britain (living the legacy of Roman Britain) still had running water, working sewers, relatively long life span (50 was typical, 60-80 not unheard of). Couple hundred years later (and a military/cultural takeover by northern Europeans) lifespans were down to 30, no water or sewers, nothing but thatched huts and subsistence living as far as the eye could see.

    Today, are have we made any moral progress over either versions of Britain? Are people really better people now compared to fill_in_the_blank? Part of the Progrisive Myth is claim to the ending of slavery, women's suffrage, penicillin and walking on the moon, and other "Candle in the Darkness" appropriations. That's just it, it is all appropriation. Christians whom you point to, Classical Liberals, methodological scientists who believe in Nature as such, it is these sorts of people who actually responsible for these (very real) progressions, and most of them understood how well it will (not if) all be undermined in small and big ways in the future by outside circumstances and our inner nature. Myths always have some truth in them, but it's their "magical thinking" that in part undoes them in the end.
     
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  13. gepardcv

    gepardcv Almost "Made"

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    Speaking as a fellow immigrant: preach on, brother. I have had approximately zero success getting this (or similar concepts) across to any of my American-born friends or family.
     
  14. wormcycle

    wormcycle Friend

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    [
    And what I learnt recently: cars, even with subsidies, are not the main source of the Tesla revenue. The carbon credits that Tesla sells to other car manufactures are. And, under Biden administration, it will become even more profitable for Tesla.

    On slightly different subject: Elon had to show something for more subsidies: he immediately declared BTC very energy intensive. He obviously did not that before. And do not bet that he is selling his BTC, he may be buying more.
     
  15. wormcycle

    wormcycle Friend

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    That what I used to hear from my fist progressive friends in Canada 30 years ago: you have big advantage, because you start from zero. I am happy they were right.
     
  16. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    He sold before he declared BTC too energy intensive. When it goes down low enough, he will buy, and then announce that Tesla will accept BTC again. Rinse and repeat. No market manipulation as BTC trading is not regulated. Unethical, probably.
     
  17. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    It's less circumstances later catching up, but more that there are downsides to this approach. For example, my more successful uncles and aunts having to take care of less successful family members, the bums, or the local village idiots, have to put resources aside that otherwise could be used for capital that generates greater return that would benefit more people in society. Universal health care is achieved, but at the expense of not having the latest medical procedures available, or having to say you are probably dead if you need a new organ, or not being able to sue the hospital when shit goes wrong. Having a homogeneous culture with a certain belief system that supports this model doesn't attract the best and the brightest from around the world. Also, if you aren't Taiwanese, good luck getting any benefits - it's not like the US - you won't get jack shit.

    (It's funny when I hear Americans epouse how awesome Norway and Sweden are, but won't emigrate there.)

    Ultimately, it's the lever, how far in either direction we want it? Less poverty but at the expense of the greater society -or- more anything goes, but at the expense of the weak, sick, old, dumb, unlucky, lazy, addicted, etc. It's a classical human conundrum. I bet there was no poverty in ancient Sparta - because they killed all the idiots and weaklings and made everyone else slaves. Mao and Pol Lot tried to create a society without poverty by eliminating class, enforcing egalitarianism. They ended up with piles of bones.
     
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  18. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    Human nature is mutable. To the point that it will not be human anymore. Such seems to be the way of evolution.

    As far as poverty, it will not be erradicated. That's beyond human nature and perhaps a consequence of living in a closed environment such as our planet. Also note that poverty is a very relative term and in some ways loosely defined. A homeless guy here in American lives like a king compared to some disadvantaged people living in other countries and actually working for a living.
     
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  19. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    LOLZ... So true!
     
  20. penguins

    penguins Friend, formerly known as fp627

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    I hate to be that guy - but is it even a good thing to completely eliminate poverty? More over-consumption of resources, more over-population, more pollution which I think anyone can believe in regardless of belief in global warming, more diseases and sicknesses (7B+ people = 7B+ chances for something to happen instead of only 1B ~100 years ago), etc. Seems like we would just be climbing higher up the ladder to fall that much harder when we get up to the top.

    Of course, I'm still very glad to be alive in this era of time where there is at least a "semi-functional" standard of living, even for most of the global poor. For example, the fact that half of people make it past 10 years old, slavery for the most part is not globally acceptable, I don't have to restart my life every 10 years b/c my house/farm/land was destroyed in a petty war between inbred cousin kings, and in most developed nations - no horrible diarrhea every time I feel thirsty, etc. Much less having resources to do relatively trivial things like nitpick about how sound waves come out of a headphone, etc.

    ^This
     
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