HiFiMan SUSVARA "Review" and Measurements

Discussion in 'Headphone Measurements' started by purr1n, May 27, 2017.

  1. Rthomas

    Rthomas Friend

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    If you don't mind me asking what's the BOM cost on this amp including tubes?
     
  2. m17xr2b

    m17xr2b Friend

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    Around £6-7K excluding the preamp which is 2K in parts for silver autoformers and custom elma switches. Tubes vary between £200 and £2000.

    As it usually goes with hifi, 90% can be obtained with half the cost. 90% of that for another 50% and so forth.

    Roaming the used market can have considerable savings.
     
  3. Magnetostatic_Tubephile

    Magnetostatic_Tubephile Friend

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    I remember reading through this topic several times in the past, finding the various points of view expressed here very interesting.

    Now that I own Susvara, allow me - as a huge HE-6/HE-500 fan who dislikes the modern Hifiman house sound - to chime in and react to some of the posts:

    The stock Susvara pads suck. For anyone expecting Susvara to sound like a spiritual successor of HE-6, replace them ASAP with something like DCA Perforated Ether 2 or ZMF Eikon Hybrid Solid pads.

    With the original pads, Susvara's tonality is artificially brightened and timbre leans too much towards the neo-SoftFiMan™ or electrostatic sound.

    With the aftermarket pads, Susvara is able to perform like a great hybrid of the old and new Hifiman house signatures... and you finally hear the HE-6's legacy.

    Now...

    For someone expecting a 1:1 copy of the old Hifiman sound (identical bass-lowmid fatness and sustain; ringing cymbals; compact focused soundstage; the specific oldschool Hifiman timbre), Susvara could indeed be a sidegrade - definitely so with the stock pads. I agree with an opinion expressed elsewhere that HE-6 remains "the best guilty pleasure headphone for rocking out and toe-tapping".

    For me personally, Susvara is an evolution forward from HE-6, namely due to...
    • Even more neutral tonality
    • Cleaner, faster and more detailed performance with less ringing
    • Naturally extended soundstage in all 3 dimensions with more precise imaging ( => more 3D effect)
    ... being in balance with what I specifically love about HE-6:
    • Very linear, deep and hardhitting bass
    • Lush and involving mids
    • Subjectively 'pure' timbre that uniquely combines and contrasts physicality (magnetic driver sound) with smoothness (electrostatic sound).
    On the other hand, I do not think Susvara is a revolution. Despite Susvara being technically closer to perfection, it's no less of an amazing experience to listen to music with modded HE-6. Both Susvara and HE-6 are past the "awesomesauce" threshold for me, therefore would be perfectly happy owning either.

    Modded HE-6 is still very competitive on today's market, a decade after its release, and realistically gives you 90%+ of Susvara's performance for fraction of its cost. The release of Susvara IMHO did not degrade HE-6 status or potency in any way, the two headphones can very well co-exist together like they certainly will in my house.

    Of course, no headphone is perfect. However, given proper ear cushions, Susvara is the least compromised ( = most complete) headphone I have ever heard. It has a great tonality from the deepest bass frequencies to the highest trebles, believable timbre, convincing technicalities and solid ergonomics. It's been hard for me to spot a clear flaw in its performance honestly once I threw away the Harmony pads.

    Anyway, the MSRP price is indeed absolutely stupid crazy. Just like with anything else in today's high-end, unfortunately. No way they should cost more than 2.6k USD, twice the original HE-6 cost.

    I do not think anyone really needs to own Susvara, as there are quite a few very competent all-round headphones available today for much less. What I would say is this - if have the disposable income and nothing more interesting to pursue, Susvara has the potential to amaze you enough not to care about its astronomical cost, especially if you can get them for something closer to 2.6k than 6k USD.
     
    Last edited: May 27, 2021
  4. iFi audio

    iFi audio MOT iFi Audio

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    Yup, this pretty much says it all. Balance and ability to do pretty much everything on a very high level is their greatest feature IMO.
     
  5. M3NTAL

    M3NTAL Friend

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    When you have to change the pads out to make the statement "least compromised" on a headphone that costs how much? I've heard them with the stock pads and they are quite technically impressive, but damn do they not sound right. Maybe that is my subjective opinion, but I've never heard live or recorded music sound the way it reproduces sound. It is for sure really "neat" - but even in the HiFiMan lineup I feel like there are less polarizing sounding headphones.

    I guess I'm just not sure why we continue to support HFM - are we gluttons for janky headphones?
     
  6. Magnetostatic_Tubephile

    Magnetostatic_Tubephile Friend

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    Well, the stock HE-6 pads also suck - maybe a bit less but they do. Actually, do not remember liking any Hifiman pads I've tried, maybe except the very ancient velours with glued transparent mounting rings. Btw, the cables supplied with Susvara also suck... basically everything except the headphone itself does, like usual with Hifiman :rolleyes:
     
  7. ufospls2

    ufospls2 Friend

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    I've been trying out the Perforated Suede Universe pads from ZMF lately on my Susvara, with great results. Very similar to the stock pads in terms of sound, but more comfortable. I tried the leather perforated universe pads, that was a huge no go. Too bright.
     
  8. Magnetostatic_Tubephile

    Magnetostatic_Tubephile Friend

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    I've tried around 10 sets from ZMF, Dekoni and DCA so far, still waiting on ZMF Verite B2 hybrid solids to arrive. :) Once I am done experimenting, will of course post a full evaluation in the dedicated SBAF thread as usual.

    I am sure that different pads would work depending on personal preferences. What I wanted to say primarily is that:
    • The Harmony pads suck acoustically, plenty of aftermarket choices complement Susvara better.
    • For those wanting more "believable and down to earth" ( = less "SoftFiMan") sound, the two sets highlighted by me are good choices. The DCA set is a bit closer to HE-6/HE-500 ("rocking out") signature while the ZMF set is closer to HD650 ("coherent") signature.
     
  9. dubharmonic

    dubharmonic Friend

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    Would you guys mind posting some pics showing how you're applying these third-party pads?
     
  10. Magnetostatic_Tubephile

    Magnetostatic_Tubephile Friend

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    i am simply using the black plastic mounting rings from pads supplied with older Hifimans (HE-6 in my case), as those are fully compatible with Susvara.

    You should be able to get some online if needed, just google "Hifiman mounting rings". You then attach pads to the rings, and then you attach the rings to Susvara.

    Alternatively, you could tear the bottom plastic part off the Harmony (Susvara) pads... and use it the same way as described above.

    I am sure there are other ways but this has always been the standard procedure with round-shaped Hifimans.
     
  11. Huhnkopf

    Huhnkopf Friend

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    Can you also do a roundup with your HE-6 and all these (incoming) pads?
     
  12. rhythmdevils

    rhythmdevils MOT: rhythmdevils audio

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    Just a small quibble. Every other Hifiman I’ve seen and to my knowledge every Audeze use no damping materials either. I can’t speak to other Neo orthos but I don’t think the Verum is damped at all either. I would love to hear an Abyss, Susvara and LCD-4. Etc
     
  13. Magnetostatic_Tubephile

    Magnetostatic_Tubephile Friend

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    Let me try to do a general earpad guideline based on my experience, applicable to round-shaped Hifimans and other typical planar magnetics (there are exceptions, as usual)...


    GENERAL

    Subbass
    • For maximum subbass extension, go with pads with solid material on the outside part not facing your head, meaning:
      • non-perforated (p)leather pads
      • hybrid pads with non-perforated (p)leather on the outside
      • pleather pads perforated only on the inside
    • With other pad types, you can expect some roll-off and therefore somewhat decreased sense of bass fullness and rumble
      • perforated or non-perforated velour pads
      • hybrid and (p)leather pads perforated on the inside and outside
    Midbass to low-mids
    • Typically no significant differences among different pad materials. Subjectively, bass might sound a bit tighter and more focused with (p)leather compared to velour.
    Middle-mids
    • Pads with solid material on the outside (see above) often yield some gradual emphasis towards 1kHz (think Audeze LCD2/3 sound).
      • If subtle, can introduce a pleasing sense of warmth and soothness to sound.
      • In extreme cases leads to a sense of nasality in sound.
    • The above could still happen with some other ear pads. The more open and breathable your pads are (depends on surface material but also the internal foam material), the lesser the chance of the above occuring.
    Upper-mids
    • Non-perforated p(leather) pads, especially those with large internal cavity (diameter and depth), can often sound significantly muted around 1-4kHz which can increase sense of clarity and make voices or other sounds appear more "distant" from you (aka less present). This is typical with Hifimans, HE-6 and Susvara included.
    • For best presence in this region, generally go with pads having rather smaller internal cavity that ideally incorporate either velour material or, if not possible, at least some form of perforation.
      • perforated or non-perforated velour
      • hybrid
      • (p)leather perforated on the inside and outside
      • (p)leather perforated on the inside
    Treble
    • Depends on the particular ear pads design, difficult to give general recommendations. The synergy between particular pads and headphones is key.
    • Roughly, in my experience:
      • (p)leather might introduce emphasis on particular frequency areas or simply not "control" headphone resonances well enough
      • velour is typically present throughout and airier (which can be good or not so good depending on the particular headphone)
      • non-perforated hybrid or anyhow perforated (p)leather usually seem to be able to give a good balance of everything in treble
    Timbre
    • My advice would be to avoid pleather and velour, unless it is of high quality. Let me copy/paste from the official ZMF website, as it provides a very nice general explanation:
      • "Natural materials like lambskin and cowhide have darker more "natural" timbre while man made materials like protein and ZMF suede will have more "reflections" from them not being made of natural material. This usually is slightly noticeable and comes across as more "hash" or "glare" than natural materials. It's not better or worse, but will slightly affect the sound of your headphone. In order of brightest to darkest ZMF earpad material: Protein (brightest), ZMF Suede, ZMF Lambskin, Cowhide (darkest)."
      • The lower the quality, the more severe the reflections / unnatural colorations are. In some extreme cases, this leads to cavernous effect.
    • Otherwise, best to go empirical and simply try out multiple pads with your favourite headphones to find the most synergizing combination.
    Openness
    • The more perforated or velour the pads are, the better the sense of openness.
    • The less perforated or more (p)leather the pads are, the more compact, closed-in and direct sound presentation you typically get.
    Soundstage and imaging
    • The deeper and larger the pads are, the better the sense of soundstage dimensionality (less "in your head" sound).
    • The more angled the pads are, the better the chance of improved sense of imaging.
    Comfort
    • Surface material as well as inner dimensions (depth, diameter) play a large role. Most people would be simply unable to live with a headphone that is not comfortable to wear, especially if their skin or ears are getting irritated. Level of comfort given by ear pads could even have some psychoacoustic effect on how you perceive the headphone's sound.

    Great knowledge on earpads can also be found on the official ZMF website, definitely recommended.


    SUSVARA/HE-6

    I have the following pads available:

    Non-perforated (p)leather
    • Hifiman old pleather (supplied with most of the oldschool Hifimans incl. HE-6)
    • Dekoni AKG K Series sheepskin
    • Mrspeakers (DCA) ether flow angled
    • Verum non-perforated pleather
    • ZMF Auteur solid leather
    • Audeze leather
    Perforated (p)leather
    • Mrspeakers (DCA) ether 2 perforated (only perforated on the inside)
    • ZMF Universe perforated leather
    • ZMF Auteur perforated leather
    • ZMF Eikon perforated leather
    Non-perforated hybrid
    • ZMF Universe hybrid solid
    • ZMF Eikon hybrid solid
    Perforated hybrid
    • Dekoni Fostex TH900 elite hybrid (only perforated on the inside)
    • Hifiman Harmony (stock Susvara pads, only perforated on the inside)
    Velour
    • Hifiman "ancient" velour (glued transparent plastic rings)
    • Hifiman old velour (supplied with most of the oldschool Hifimans incl. HE-6)
    • ZMF Universe perforated suede
    Trying to generally evaluate or even measure everything with both HE-6 and Susvara would be extremely time-consuming, with unclear outcomes.


    Given my preferences though, the decision-making process based on the above knowledge would be:

    1. Since I want my subbass as deep as possible, generally cannot go with velour, perforated (p)leather or perforated hybrid - with the exception of perforated pads only perforated on the inside.
    2. Since I want my upper mids as present as possible, generally cannot go with (p)leather. This is also true as I want my treble as balanced as possible. This also puts some caveat on pads with larger cavity (Harmony pads).
    3. Since comfort is important for me, ear pads with too small inner space (Dekoni Fostex TH900 elite hybrid) are out.
    4. Since timbre is important for me, ear pads with low-quality materials (Harmony pads) are out.
    5. What remains is the following:
      1. ZMF Universe hybrid solid
      2. ZMF Eikon hybrid solid
      3. Mrspeakers (DCA) ether 2 perforated (only perforated on the inside)
    And guess what... the 3 sets are indeed very good subjectively for me, for both Susvara and HE-6. :) (For HE-6, I settled on the Universe hybrids. For Susvara, I am undecided among the three.)

    Of course you eventually simply have to give some a try to decide for yourself... but being able to narrow the whole market down to several potential choices might save you some time and money.


    Apart from the above 3 sets, some potential candidates for the Hifimans if prefering brighter/airier sound than me:

    • Mrspeakers (DCA) ether flow angled / ZMF Eikon perforated leather
      • Very good tonal balance and timbre with some excitement in treble.
      • NOTE: The DCA set is preferred by me with Verum One and is also a fan's favourite for HE-6. The ZMF set is preferred by me with ZMF Auteur.
    • ZMF Auteur perforated leather
      • Similar to the above but with significantly bigger internal cavity + some excitement in upper mids (kind of HD800-like emphasis), great for enhancing perceived soundstage.
    • Hifiman "ancient" velour (glued transparent plastic rings)
      • The only Hifiman pads that have solid timbre. Highly recommended but also impossible to get unfortunately.
      • NOTE: My preferred pads with HE-500.
    • ZMF Universe perforated suede
      • Suede pads from ZMF are of the highest quality I encountered, therefore anything from them is an obvious recommendation.
    Uffff... I guess nothing more to add!:drunk:

    But anyone feel free to chime in and correct me where I am wrong!
     
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    Last edited: Jun 5, 2021
  14. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    Doesn't Audeze and RAD have either foam or felt behind the driver? The HFM classics had the hex star felt cutouts and the plastic mesh, the newer HFM have moved away from this but even the lower end HFMs have that plastic mesh which does restrict airflow. Verum has a piece of felt or two in the back. MrSpeakers has felt in the back and an assortment of doggie treats in front. Abyss has that metal "scrub pad" thing behind the driver. Final D8000 seems to have completely done away with any kind of foam or felt, but is instead relying on fine metal mesh integrated as their magnet support.

    Susvara is pretty exposed, with widely spaced "bars" and a mostly a flyscreen in the way, much like many modded HE-6 I've seen around.
     
  15. rhythmdevils

    rhythmdevils MOT: rhythmdevils audio

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    I didn’t know about the Verum and Abyss except the Verum needs moar damping so I assumed it was completely undamped.

    The Audeze’s are all completely undamped as far as I can tell. That foam disc is acoustically transparent it doesn’t even help with resonance. Plus they all have fazors on the back so they physically couldn’t be damping the driver. And from what I’ve seen they don’t do any cup damping but that’s not what Audezes need anyways. The Adorama Hifimans and HE6seV1 have zero damping. But they’re also tuned pretty high making it difficult to damp them to get the driver moving faster because damping tips up the FR even more. They already lack bass.
     
  16. iFi audio

    iFi audio MOT iFi Audio

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    Thanks a lot. Now I only need to show this to our man in charge and say that we NEED some new pads for Susvara at our office. Should be quite straightforward now :D
     
  17. Magnetostatic_Tubephile

    Magnetostatic_Tubephile Friend

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    For those wanting to give Susvara a bit of a "Harman" boost (more "rumble") without affecting the rest of its frequencies, you could give the following tweak a try:

    [​IMG]
    (By attaching Hifiman mounting rings with only 3 from 4 of its locking protrusions, a gap between pads and cups is created.)

    As a result, compared to Susvara's normal, low bass frequency response gets boosted quite a bit:

    [​IMG]

    As indicated above, some effort would be needed to perfectly match the elevation between left and right channel. On the other hand, you get some room to experiment with intensity of the effect, to dial it to your tastes.

    The tweak is nothing revolutionary but wanted to highlight the possibility to others regardless.
     
  18. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    That's pretty good seeing how the bass doesn't roll off a cliff after breaking the seal. We get a nice bump, but no drop at all. Looks like the Fs is inherently low on the driver.
     
  19. Clemmaster

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  20. Koth Ganesh

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    I have one and will be trying this tweak today (it’s 6 am here now ).
     

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