DDC Measurements - Audio-GD DI-20HE, Pi2AES, ifi Zen Stream

Discussion in 'Digital: DACs, USB converters, decrapifiers' started by GoldenOne, Jul 22, 2021.

  1. GoldenOne

    GoldenOne Friend

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    (Updated post to include new devices)

    These are listed in order of RMS Jitter performance (note that you should look at the actual spectrum of jitter not just the Peak/RMS values)


    Rockna Wavedream NET ($9500):
    https://goldensound.audio/2021/08/28/rockna-wavedream-net-review-and-measurements/
    Notable features: Server/Roon Core, USB output

    Singxer SU6 ($700):
    https://goldensound.audio/2021/08/01/singxer-su6-measurements/
    Notable features: RJ45 I2S output

    Denafrips Gaia ($1800):
    https://goldensound.audio/2021/10/04/denafrips-gaia-measurements-with-terminator-clock-sync-test/
    Notable features: 768khz support, Dual AES support, SPDIF/AES input, can be synced to Denafrips Terminator clock outputs

    Audio-GD DI-20HE ($1000):
    https://goldensound.audio/2021/07/22/audio-gd-di20he-measurements/
    Notable features: SPDIF input

    KTE SU2 ($840):
    https://goldensound.audio/2021/09/27/singxer-su2-measurements/
    Notable features: 768khz support

    pi2design Pi2AES ($330 for pi2aes and all required hardware):
    https://goldensound.audio/2021/07/22/pi2aes-streamer-measurements-and-5v-psu-mod-instructions/
    Notable features: Streaming endpoint, one of the few devices that fully eliminates USB from the chain

    Modified Singxer SU-1 (SoTM sCLK-EX clock board) ($N/A discontinued):
    https://goldensound.audio/2021/08/1...d-with-sotm-sclk-ex-clock-board-measurements/

    ifi Zen Stream ($399):
    https://goldensound.audio/2021/07/22/ifi-zen-stream-measurements/
    Notable features: Streaming endpoint

    Mutec MC3+ USB ($900):
    https://goldensound.audio/2021/10/05/mutec-mc3-usb-ddc-reclocker-measurements/
    Notable features: Highly flexible clock distribution. AES/SPDIF inputs. Internal DSD to PCM conversion

    Gustard U18 ($500):
    https://goldensound.audio/2022/04/07/gustard-u18-ddc-measurements/
    Notable features: 768khz support

    Chord MScaler ($5300):
    https://goldensound.audio/2022/03/17/chord-hugo-m-scaler-measurements-and-technical-evaluation/
    Notable features: High performance upsampling, chord dual-BNC output with 768khz support (192khz for other DACs via standard SPDIF BNC)
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2022
  2. Woland

    Woland Friend

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    Hi GoldenOne

    Any chance you can test if the Pi2AES measurements vary depending on system load? The lightest config might be running Ropieee, and ideally with power-saving system settings, while heaviest might be running HQPlayer with a million-tap filter. That will put a load on the CPUs, the IO and the Pi2AES throughput.

    If a Pi2AES can keep it's pristine measurements while also being an upscaling workhouse.. that will be truly spectacular.
     
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2021
  3. GoldenOne

    GoldenOne Friend

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    Unfortunately the pi2aes is boxed up and heading back out to the owner now so I can't test further :(
    (Sold my personal pi2aes to put money toward the analyzer).

    But if/when I get one back in again I'll test that
     
  4. NekoAudio

    NekoAudio Acquaintance

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    If you haven't heard of Mutec, you might want to check out one or some of their products since clocks and conversion is what they specialize in.
     
  5. JellyRhino

    JellyRhino Facebook Friend

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    Great work @GoldenOne ! Can you share your subjective impressions?
     
  6. GoldenOne

    GoldenOne Friend

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    Unfortunately I couldn't listen for long as I kinda had to measure it and get it sent back to the owner ASAP.
    But I should have another unit here soonish so once I've given that a proper run and comparison to some other sources I'll give some feedback.
    Very positive though
     
  7. Michael Kelly

    Michael Kelly MOT: Pi 2 Design

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    First let me say great work in doing these measurements and sharing them with everyone here. As a manufacture of one of those items I am obviously very keen to understand how our product relates with respect to other products out there.

    Having said that, I am wondering what is the sound quality impact of analog noise on the digital link. We know that jitter in the digital stream can cause artifacts when it is converted to analog. This is because the edges are moving in the time domain which directly correlates to voltage level changes that are not in the source stream. Electrical noise on the other hand, as long as it is significantly below the digital signal, which is approximately 1 V, seems unlikely to have an impact in the final conversion. Are you able to detect changes in the analog stream related to the noise? Obviously the IFI people have done a great job in eliminating overall system noise. I am just not sure that that translates into less analog noise at the output of the analog device.

    However if this were true it would cause me to reevaluate the way we power our digital circuitry.
     
  8. Alcophone

    Alcophone Acquaintance

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    Electrical noise on a digital signal should result in jitter. If the thresholds for a digital state change are "1 = goes above 0.9V" and "0 = goes below 0.1V", say, then noise will cause the signal to cross such a threshold sooner or later than intended.
     
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  9. Michael Kelly

    Michael Kelly MOT: Pi 2 Design

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    only if the noise is sufficient amplitude to actually change the slope of the signal. Remember the signal is being driven by a device that is capable of putting out several milliamps of current the noise would have to shift the voltage level overcoming that. Don’t get me wrong, I am fully prepared to To make changes if we can demonstrate higher jitter when there is higher noise. Absent of that connection as a manufacture I am loathe to increase cost to no actual benefit.
     
  10. Alcophone

    Alcophone Acquaintance

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    I am curious about the answers you'll receive, I just have very superficial knowledge on the subject as a curious audiophile and no practical experience.

    Edit: SBAF removed my popcorn emoji, please imagine one at the end of my message.
     
  11. GoldenOne

    GoldenOne Friend

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    In regards to the level of noise and how it affects things, honestly I have no idea, and I imagine it'd depend on the product it's connected to. With USB for example some DACs are pretty susceptible to noise from the USB source whereas others are practically immune.

    My guess is that it'd either show in the analog output of the device itself as noise, though likely substantially attenuated.
    OR: It could potentially have a negative impact on certain other aspects of the DAC, perhaps maybe reducing final jitter performance if clocks which are running the PLL etc are negatively affected by the noise or ground plane pollution?

    It's certainly easy enough to test though and something that would be worth looking into.
    I'll do a few comparisons with a couple DACs next week and post what I find. (I'm away until Sunday so can't test stuff until then)

    The main reason I tested noise with the DDCs is simply because I figured that realistically, there are only three things that could be different with a DDC/digital source:

    Data integrity, Jitter, Noise. And so checking all three could potentially be handy to refer back to later.
     
  12. Armaegis

    Armaegis Friend

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    Does the AP gear let you view the digital eye patterns? It could be an interesting experiment.
     
  13. Michael Kelly

    Michael Kelly MOT: Pi 2 Design

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    I’d be happy to supply a unit for you to test. PI 4 and case included. Just send me an email and your contact info. No charge and no strings.
     
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  14. Michael Kelly

    Michael Kelly MOT: Pi 2 Design

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    even that does not tell us if the noise or reduced eye opening has any impact at low enough levels. Clearly there is a level that it will impact operation.
     
  15. GoldenOne

    GoldenOne Friend

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    If you're happy to do so that would be fantastic thank you! I'll send you a DM.

    Next I need to see about getting a deliberately noisier source to test with :D
     
  16. Michael Kelly

    Michael Kelly MOT: Pi 2 Design

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    It will go out tomorrow. What software do you want loaded on the SD card? Or do you prefer to take care of that yourself?
     
  17. GoldenOne

    GoldenOne Friend

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    Brilliant thank you!
    I typically use ropieee but I can flash it once it arrives, that's no worry
     
  18. Alcophone

    Alcophone Acquaintance

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    Using seemingly any USB charger with multiple ports, with both an iFi micro iDSD and an Amazon device (Echo Dot Gen 2 or Fire TV Stick 4K) in said charger, seems to be a wonderful source of noise out of the RCA outs - even when the micro iDSD is turned off!
     
  19. loadexfa

    loadexfa MOT: rhythmdevils audio

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    An example of why the MOTs on SBAF are awesome. :bow:
     
  20. Senorx12562

    Senorx12562 Case of the mondays

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    Don't remember ever seeing a use of the phrase "wonderful source of noise" on this site before.
     

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