AudioQuest Nighthawk

Discussion in 'Headphone Measurements' started by purr1n, Oct 4, 2015.

  1. E_Schaaf

    E_Schaaf MOT: E.T.A Headphones

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    The driver/baffle assembly part number is the same for the Emu Teak, X00, 600, D5000, more... They're all made by Foster and use N42 magnets of the same size. Nighthawk uses N50 IIRC from their original marketing. You can have your EMU drivers back if you like. I have no use for those and have several sets laying around from previous transplants.

    In the case of EMU, whatever difference perceived in bass and dynamic ability is probably simply a result of different cup shape and pads. The front foam damper may be of different density as well - Foster has several OEM options there too. I remember it being sightly softer than what was in the Fostex options but that could also be a factor of age. Visually they look identical.
     
  2. Philimon

    Philimon Friend

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    Much appreciated @E_Schaaf . You and Eudis have the most experience with Foster bio drivers. I am wondering how @Eudis Fernandes reached a different conclusion. Perhaps he has changed his mind since that post on reddit (ill search for it and update with link).

    You dont have to send drivers E_Schaaf. Sorry for doubting. You twos are not randos.

    Eudis did say in his post that the cups are the biggest difference in sound characteristics. I think he said the Emu had less air vent which meant more control and shape of the cups all affected somehow. Ill update with post. Of course pads n foam and everything else just as important as you mentioned.

    This recent Foster research has led me to come across again sharings of how acquiring TH900 drivers from Fostex used to be very easy but now requires proof of ownership by providing serial number. @Ishcabible had some very nice results. Maybe could rip numbers from others pics. Kidding.
     
  3. Philimon

    Philimon Friend

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    Looking for specific mention of T ratings by Eudis. I read awhile ago (or so I thought! perhaps it was on HF and not reddit)… Relevant posts found so far by Eudis in these reddit threads. Eudis mentions discussing with Chan at Emu the drivers properties, the magnets he was told are different but rest is same as THX00. Eudis also has distaste for THX00 for variance issues?:

    https://www.reddit.com/r/headphones..._medium=Search&utm_name=Bing&utm_content=PSR1

    https://www.reddit.com/r/headphones...ng_aside_the_aesthetics_are_the_fostex_th900/
     
  4. Philimon

    Philimon Friend

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    More copy / paste from Audioquest with some notes. Under ‘driver design’ it mentions 1.2T. And possibly Nighthawk is more unique besides the split gap… something about the voice coil. Interesting read and review!
     
  5. M3NTAL

    M3NTAL Friend

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    The Klipsch HP-3 is still the best driver I've heard for people who want the TH900 sound. The Nighthawk driver might work better in a CD3000 / R10 type 'romantic' setup. They all need a leaky enclosure because the driver suspension is so soft. Ask Focal about people bitching that their drivers are being overdriven.
     
  6. Lyander

    Lyander Official SBAF Equitable Empathizer

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    HP-3: less extended in the bass (TH-900 is proper brain fluid rumble) and treble effery moved up to brilliance region from sibilants, though sss can still be very bad on some recordings. Thankfully it's nowhere near as ear-stabby as shshsh on the TH-900 which is absolute death to me. Shudder. Nighthawk is dark other than that lower treble hardness which was less bothersome than on the Fostex-- didn't really bother me a lot of the time over extended demos.

    The Fostex has a bit more of a bouncy cup reverb which adds interesting play to recordings from big band and crooners like Sinatra and Count Basie-- baritones are thinner sounding on the TH-900s from a purely FR perspective but the reverb gives things an odd "empty"-feeling thickness to things. The Klipsch is a bit drier with trailing decays terminating somewhat earlier which is another aspect I think the TH-900 takes a win in. Headstage is far more diffuse with the TH-900 especially laterally; depth is kinda comparable from memory though given the narrower presentation of the HP-3 it feels easier to point out individual sonic images in the "tapestry" whereas the TH-900 was leaning into HD800 diffuseness. Image delineation went more or less HP-3>=Nighthawk>TH-900 from memory with headstage size going the opposite way.

    Nighthawk in stock form with stock pads seemed to have comparable detail retrieval to the HP-3 (i.e. maybe a bit less than the TH-900), but it's buried in blubber. I think the Nighthawk and TH-900 both sorta beat the Klipsches in overall impact and SLAM; the Klipsch is fast and lithe but it feels like it's pulling its punches with most gear, if that makes sense, like it's tossing solid jabs without really putting its full body weight into punches like even the Sennheiser HD600 does (though the Senns are comparatively weaker and slower).

    Never gotten ears on the R10 but between the HP-3/TH-900/Nighthawk (two out of three being discontinued now haha) there's something to be said for each depending on preferences and upstream.

    In hindsight maybe having the Klipsch pull its punches that way is unavoidable since it may well end up being more Focal-esque in impact at the cost of being much harder to control. Eh, no free lunches, yeah?

    The Klipsch marketing touts "more than one Tesla of magnetic flux density" so it'd be within sneezing distance of the Nighthawks probably, both being markedly lower than the 1.5T of the shiny Fostex urushi. That does sorta align with impressions of low end articulation and detail retrieval but could be placebo of course. I'm calling shenanigans on the Klipsch being 52mm biodyna since it looks to be just about the same size as the rest of the gang; possible they're counting the soft surround which is cheating :p
     
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  7. Philimon

    Philimon Friend

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    52mm might be counting the driver total diameter which includes the casing… the membrane + surround would be 50mm. I was looking at these BMR drivers to try. They are basically just smaller versions of Tectonics BMR drivers used by Philharmonic for example. Check out the difference between surface area and excursion specs vs a traditional headphone driver (Peerless) with no surround.

    My tv speakers use Tectonics BMR drivers so would be a neat project for me. Cambridge Audio Aero:

    [​IMG]

    edit: corrected link for specific BMR driver and put photo behind spoiler
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2021
  8. Philimon

    Philimon Friend

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    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    ^ Shure 1540 (left), stock Nighthawk hybrids (right)

    Nighthawk Shure 1540 (best pad seal).jpg

    Attached graph showing all measurements to demonstrate its still difficult getting pad seal with these because light clamp. Fits stock mounting ring but these measurements were done without. Haven't listened yet. An 8kHz peak is usually a deal breaker for me but I'd be willing to buy Schiit Lokius for these though ...
     

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  9. Philimon

    Philimon Friend

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    Nighthawk Shure 1540 redo.jpg

    I redid the Shure 1540 measurements. Original measurements were without double sided sticky taping down the pads, I just placed them in between EARS coupler and headphone which I think contributed to the wide measurement variation. So, here it is with taped down pads. Still some variation but not as bad as before. Most probably from positioning relative to mic/ear vs any loss of seal.

    Listening and first impressions is they are quite warm sounding. Not sure these are better than stock despite possibly tamer highs (they really don't sound tamer than stock at all). I prefer the prostock pads, less cavernous sounding due to thinness of pads at center. And despite looking comfortable and open these 1540 pads trap in heat well. Bad!

    edit: nvm on selling pads. I could use them to help sell some undesirable headphones. 1540 pads are popular I think. Not for me.
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2021
  10. Philimon

    Philimon Friend

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    @Lyander Sorry I didnt have a better response for your unprompted gratuitous sharing of pertinent impressions. Your posts are often a treat to read, thank you. Liked the punching analogy, sounds like Klipsch driver could be underdamped if bass sounds a little soft. It is unfortunate we’ve not heard a modded TH900 like @E_Schaaf ‘s because it looks awesome. I am content knowing ETA graphene is comparable and that I can buy a TH900 eventually. Your affinity for these style of drivers means you might like ETA. If interested Id ask E_Schaaf to send my pre-ordered Supra to you first then you can forward to me, or you can buy if like and Ill get another set.

    ———

    Old Nighthawk thread on Changstar. Mostly goes off course to discussion on headphone measurements.:
    https://www.changstar.com/www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,2686.0.html

    ———

    Shure 1540 pads sounded awful. Same thing happened when I tried them with T50RP Mayflower mod. Sounded so bright. Measurrments showed much improved smoothness in the highs, but it was elevated with sucked out mids.

    The Prostock hybrids are best so far. Will order some more pads to try.
     
  11. Lyander

    Lyander Official SBAF Equitable Empathizer

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    Dude not sure you need to apologise any, you're doing a lot to investigate stuff. The best I can offer at the moment is older impressions since I've not been able to get ears on anything new in over a year now which sucks a bit.

    I was thinking slightly overdampened since allowing for a bit more airflow in the back-end (broke seal slightly) mitigates the punches-held-back feeling I got, though bass levels became even more overbearing as a consequence.

    Virus far from under control on my end and while the entire family is now fully vaccinated I'm still not keen on exposing anyone to problems based solely on the fact that both parents have pre-existing conditions, not to mention I've had too many head-crackingly frustrating experiences with the local post to really want to put anyone else's stuff at risk (recently lost a lot of cool stuff in the mail but it was a gift... no real financial loss)-- if anything ends up here it's a one-way trip unless I pay even more to make sure it gets where it needs to go and that's bonkers amounts of money.

    For the Nighthawk maybe hybrid pads that are the reverse of the HE-4XX would help somewhat-- something that's breathable on the outside to help reduce bass flub with reflective leather/pleather to help with the murky top end? Measurements with the 1540 pads don't look too bad other than the obvious warm-buttedness from BASS, but that ought to be much simpler to address with EQ if nothing else.
     
  12. M3NTAL

    M3NTAL Friend

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    I think @E_Schaaf and the rest of the 3-D print crew will be able to extract the most from these drivers with custom baffles and cups (like the genesis g/p and ESX900). I would not mod around the stock housing - you will never get much further other than cleaning up some of the stuff that they couldn't do in mass production. No OE is going to manufacture their own damplifier pro when it already exists. I think AudioQuest took a lot of chances with this headphone and they won and failed at the same time.

    If I had the time / equipment, I would make a R10 clone with the AQ driver and just live with the romantic nature. I haven't kept up with ETA, but they should have their own pads soon. I'm still pretty excited to find out what Ev ends up doing with these drivers - hopefully he doesn't find their mechanical limits and cut the project short. I have zero more donor drivers :p
     
  13. Philimon

    Philimon Friend

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    [​IMG]

    Carbon is prettier. Headband too. No smell. Stock cable wouldnt work with iphone dongle.

    Initial impression from iphone: still the same, still u-shaped. Hard to compare against OG Nighthawk since different pads. These came with full leathers which may have decreased highs a little bit (most gracious), bass a little more hard hitting but little bloomy (is this why you vent pads @E_Schaaf ?). Measurements and enclosure inspection later.

    edit: Nah, it has a tiny bit of funk but its also mixed with wood smell if thats possible. Looking at cups the gaps in baffle still exist with a white film apparent (“mold”). lol
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2021
  14. Philimon

    Philimon Friend

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    Nighthawk Carbon pleather pads.jpg

    ^ Easier to get a seal with pleather but some strong variation in 2-3kHz from positioning.

    Carbon pleather vs OG hybrid.jpg

    ^ Hmmm. Hybrid looks better. It has been awhile since I've listened to stock hybrids. Been using Brainwavz Prostock hybrid since acquiring. And just haven't listened much at all because smell, and because I have BL30 within reach as well since I am modding concurrently. Not saying BL30 is better, but it is smoother with better overall tone. Wasn't really going to give Nighthawk much listening time anyway until measured more tolerable. Not saying they cant be enjoyed but they aren't recommended for reliable fatigue free extended enjoyable listening.

    Carbon pleather vs OG hybrid (2).jpg

    ^ Matched at 100Hz instead of 1000Hz for another angle.

    I'll measure Carbon with hybrid pads. Should be the same as OG.
     
  15. Philimon

    Philimon Friend

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    NH Carbon hybrid vs NH OG hybrid.jpg

    Pretty much same. Variables: positioning, environment, ummm stuff. Bass of stock hybrid pads is preferable to leanier but smoother treble of Brainwavz Prostock hybrid pads. :cool: Now I remember why I really wanted to sell TRX00 for a Nighthawk. Now to open and load up with damplifier pro.

    edit: Using a dslr lll take a pic of cup internals, link to my image gallery for full res photos, and you guys can see if it's mold. Wait until tomorrow though because its cloudy and starting to lose light.
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2021
  16. Philimon

    Philimon Friend

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    Inside a Nighthawk Carbon. Is it mold?:
    [​IMG]IMG_6496 by philimonmon, on Flickr

    What happens to the paint finish if you drop your Carbons on cement.:
    [​IMG]IMG_6498 by philimonmon, on Flickr

    *click links for higher resolution
     
  17. Philimon

    Philimon Friend

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    If mold then the internet says borox works better than vinegar or bleach for cleaning mold from wood so that whats I did. Also says to let air dry so the wood can absorb the borox so thats what Im doing too.

    You guys are right, Nighthawk enclosure is the biggest source of issue. The front side is concave but the horn effect is mitigated some with smaller pads like the Brainwavz prostock. The cup cavity is slim and reflections there prob add to the reverbery closed-in sound as well. Im going to try stuffing the cups with dense foam to see if that helps any. @E_Schaaf ’s cupless measurements showed very little change in terms of frequency response but maybe csd reveals more. Maybe an air tight sushi mod directing all energy to outside the back of cups could help. idunno. Alls I know is I had the brilliant idea today of selling the Nighthawks and TRX00 to afford a used TH900 but since I dropped the Carbon and messed the paint I am a little stuck. Plan B C would be driver transplant to a Audio Technica AD700X or something.
     
  18. Poleepkwa

    Poleepkwa Friend

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    That does not look like mould to me. Probably something to do with the manufacturing process?
     
  19. Ti_Leo

    Ti_Leo Almost "Made"

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    I opened my NH Carbon, and I found the white layer too, but I didn't think it's mold, too smooth to touch, no smell from it, and there should be more on the felt, which seemed to have nothing white. And yes, my unit has that wood smell too, so nothing to worry about?
     
  20. yotacowboy

    yotacowboy McRibs Kind of Guy

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    That looks like primer/sealer, not mold.
     

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