Network Players - Streamers Impressions and Reviews

You're a little off-topic, to begin with, but I'm human and always happy to help. Fortunately, you can forward text messages to email pretty quickly on most devices. You can deliver text messages like email on Android and iPhone, forward WhatsApp messages to email, and use Google Voice as a text messaging service. I've used *spam removed* in such cases. You can use the app to automatically forward some or all of your messages in no-texting mode, or manually deliver individual messages.

 

david, please read this intro to sbaf first; then introduce yourself here

in answer to your question, you can set your alert preferences to taste.

 

The aim is: use a NuPrime Evolution DAC through Ethernet/Wi-Fi with the best possible SQ from Roon

There are too many choices out there with VERY different prices, and I'm getting totally confused in many questions now.

-Everybody keeps saying that I2s is much better than AES/EBU, which is better than COAX, which is, in turn, better than USB. I will take it as a fact for now, just because it's very confusing. Everybody say something like "depends on the implementation". And the implementation.. Well, I can't check it. But, maybe I don't know something obvious? Should I even worry choosing between I2s (as there are too little to choose from) and AES/EBU?

-Does the price really make a difference so much? In the list we have EUR5000+ and EUR200-ish devices.
So, is there a real reason to spend more for, say, NS1, even though everything it says is that it's "Power and versatile"? Sounds like bullshit for me. But, seeing that, you start doubting the cheap ones. So, I will appreciate any advice.

-The options I saw include:
The cheaper side:
Pi2AES
Allo DigiOne
iFi ZEN Stream

Middle priced:
Mano ULTRA mkII
Metrum Ambre

The expensive side:
EmmLabs NS1
Aqua Linq

 

I can only add comments regarding the lower-end of your choices (doing my own fun at home listening and comparison to these):

• iFi ZEN Stream: very good sound, good implementation of both COAX and USB, easy user interface - less resolution (to my ears) versus the other two options
• Pi2AES: highest resolution implementation of all the standard digital outputs and I2S - ever so slightly more aggressive sound (also to my ears - can be tweaked with power supply, but with the intent of lowest cost, stock supply is still excellent)
• Allo DigiOne Signature (my box is a combination USBridge Signature and DigiOne Signature powered by Shanti - I do not have experience with the standard DigiOne): sound is a little more relaxed versus the Pi2AES - not as much resolution as the Pi2AES

I think a lot is dependent on what inputs are best for your DAC. Such as when I was using Soekris dac2541, the USB was not the best option - thus the Pi2AES was an easy choice, or ZEN Stream for simple UI (user interface). When I switched to Schiit DACs with Unison, I liked both the USB (lots of resolution and ease from Allo) and again the Pi2AES (engaging, energetic sound).

However, if you need I2S the Pi2AES is the obvious choice. Comparing standard digital outputs, ZEN Stream was (1) easier to setup (2) has a smoother stock sound versus Pi2AES. Pi2AES was an obvious step up in resolution, and can be later tweaked. Allo for strictly COAX/BNC did not seem a good value - I would prefer to tweak a Pi2AES or just go with ZEN Stream.

::

Comment to the admins - I only replied to this post from the perspective of, has anyone else done comparisons between these digital streamer boxes? Perhaps a thread with more direct comparison could be useful?

 

I own currently a couple of Pi2AES-based streamers, powered by Sbooster 24V LPSs, with various DACs (Yggdrasil OG, Holo May, Holo Spring 2). I've owned a Metrum Ambre with a Metrum Onyx DAC. I can't recall if I sold the Ambre before I got my first Pi2AES, but just from memory, I do not think the gap between them is major, if there is any. The Ambre is nicely self-contained. So is the Sonnet Hermes, which is very similar (Metrum vs Sonnet is a complicated story). Neither Ambre not Hermes offer HDMI I2S, which is more convenient for Holo DACs, part of why I ended up moving from Ambre to Pi2AES.

 

Someone with better understanding may be able to explain this better, but here goes.

i2s is that native format for PCM data in almost all dacs. In other words, if you have a COAX digital input, inside the dac there is a chip that converts the COAX data to i2s. The same is true of AES/EBU balanced signals and USB.

In audio, i2s typically has 4 separate channels, the bit clock, the left/right clock, the serial data, and the master clock. If you take i2s from a Pi2AES, for example, all 4 of those channels will be transmitted to the dac and go essentially straight to dac processing.

AES balanced (AES3), COAX (SPDIF), and USB take the same data and serialize it so it can be sent down 1 wire or, for balanced AES, a balanced pair of wires. Actually, here is where my understanding is not good. I believe asynchronous USB strips off the clock information and relies on the receiving device to generate the clock signal.

The main differences between AES balanced and COAX is that the AES works at higher voltages and removes most of the common noise through the balanced signal. This results in higher signal to noise ratio than COAX.

Since this is digital, none of this should matter because a perfect digital data stream should arrive at your dac processor. Alas, it does seem to matter. Some say that humans are very sensitive to time errors and that small errors that creep in during processing along the chain make a difference in perceived sound quality. Whatever the real reason, we can say that i2s requires less processing and contains a master clock signal, so everything should arrive at your dac processor as close to correct as possible.

AES balanced still has some processing along the way, but has that signal to noise ratio advantage mentioned above. USB can be good if everything is done correctly, but it often isn't quite as good as COAX.

All of these are sensitive to implementation. For example, I have a Metrum Pavane dac that uses transformers to convert the balanced analog output to unbalanced for the RCA analog outputs. This should be the best way to do it, but something about how they designed it makes the unbalanced RCA output a bigger step down in sound quality than expected.

And then there is synergy with other components of your system. In other words, there is no single right answer, but in general i2s is better than AES balanced which is better than COAX, which is better than many USB. One that seems like a sure thing is that Optical is not as good as any of these. Although optical provides excellent isolation, optical has higher jitter than any of the above.

You mentioned that you want to use this with a NuPrime Evolution DAC. That is a high end dac with all of those inputs. In that price range, I would be tempted to use i2s or at least AES balanced. As for the streamer, I have 3 Pi2AES in my house, 2 using the buffered i2s output and one using COAX because that one is feeding a 30 year old dac that only has COAX inputs. I'm perfectly happy with the Pi2AES and don't have any reasons to buy something more expensive.

Enjoy your search. I think the unknowns are part of the fun of this hobby.

 

Thank you guys for your answers!

I'm leaning towards Mano ULTRA mkII right now, as:
1) Neither Pi2AES is not easily available now nor the Raspberry Pi4 is.
2) Allo DigiOne Signature would be a way to go, but again it's not available right now with no ETA.
3) Mano ULTRA mkII has I2s AND Balanced AES/EBU. It doesn't seem to have the right I2s pinout to match the DAC. So I may need to make a custom cable, I guess... It's gonna be a story. Or I will just forget it and use AES/EBU.
4) Mano ULTRA mkII has everything inside of it, including a PSU, which usually costs like a device itself.

 

[QUOTE="RomanLis, post: 370614, member: 13781

I'm leaning towards Mano ULTRA mkII right now, as:

3) Mano ULTRA mkII has I2s AND Balanced AES/EBU. It doesn't seem to have the right I2s pinout to match the DAC. [/QUOTE]

One other thing to watch out for regarding i2s. I2s can be unbalanced (just the 4 channels) or balanced/differential that requires 2 wires per channel. The HDMI outputs are differential i2s and, because there isn't a standard pinout, different companies use different pinouts. That said, some sort of HDMI differential i2s seems to be the trend.

Some companies, Metrum comes to mind, use unbalanced i2s with their own pinout using RJ45 connections (old phone cable). The NuPrime dac has an HDMI that is probably differential i2s, but take care if you consider a different dac. I got lucky with the Pi2AES has both formats of i2s, so my Metrum was covered.

 

That streamer seems to fit into the same category as the Metrum Ambre or the Sonnet Hermes, but with HDMI rather than RJ-45 I2S output. As I own Holo DACs, I like the HDMI PS-Audio LVDS output, which (modulo a channel swap) is what I get from Pi2AES. Pricewise, Pi2AES+Pi+case+LPS comes to around 1/2 of the ULTRA mkII, but at the cost of some assembly required. Definitely worth trying out the ULTRA mkII, let us know how it works out.

 

I've just got it with Purple fuse option, Wi-Fi and AQ Pearl48 HDMI cable.
It works through I2s.

You know what? USB fed from NUC with a linear PSU + micro iUSB3 + QED TOTL USB cables completely suck in comparison. Even though I didn't believe I would hear anything, it's obvious. It's warmer, fuller, more 3d, less harsh. Love it so far.

I use it through Wi-Fi, and the power is going through Isotek Sirius filter +Isotek Premier cable.

Also, it's beautiful and easy to set up, if you're not afraid of web interfaces

Thank you guys for your advice!

 

I think I will jump in here with a few little bits of my experience.

I have been working for about 5 years to settle my system down to the point that I love the sound. I have done that by eliminating gear. My speakers have AES in, and some other inputs, but AES is for my streamer system. This has eliminated a lot of emotional noise in my system. Less cables, boxes, etc.

This has focused my streamer research to something that outputs AES. (I can take SPDIF too). I have tried Antipodes, Aurender, Auralic, and many others. I have built modded Mac Mini, built multiple computers, tried all of the Sonore goodies,. I have been down the SOTM trifecta route. WHEW. Where Have I LANDED?

.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.

Two Raspberry Pi 4's running PiCorePlayer, Klaus (soundcheck Audio) Squeezelite, and LMS + iPeng or Material Skin. The DDC is a Pi2AES. The LMS server has a 4TB SSD on it with my music. Both are on WIFI. The "final?? last" upgrade were two Ferrum HYPSOS power supplies. DONE, FINISHED! There is an

Now nobody will believe that I am done including myself. I am working on the soundcheck audio scripts to get this down to one box and one power supple with the Mercury Streamer.

I have turned all of the software volume controls off and use the remote to my speakers for that. It takes about 20-30 min to set the Pi software up for this. I have gone back and looked a Volumio, MOODE, Roon and LMS keeps things in balance.
.
.
.
The one thing that has come REALLY CLOSE is the latest software in the Andipodes DX my friend has. We were able to really make ROON sing for him. With some help from DX engineering Ethernet Filters. He has ordered a K50 that I will test here as soon as it arrives, I have to set it up for him.

A couple of months ago I wrote an article about this for Audiophile Style:

https://audiophilestyle.com/ca/bits...er-and-streamer-for-the-audio-hobbyist-r1060/

If you read the whole thing You can see I have evolved since then, mostly to WiFi on the Pi's

RJF

 

Any chance you could update the article to add the PI2AES?

 

Just FWIW the Mano Ultra mkII seems to be Pi based a la pi2design’s Mercury streamer as it has options for all the pi audio distros. It’d be interesting to see a comparison once @Michael Kelly gets his product into production. A major difference is the Mano has a built in power supply while iirc for better or worse the Mercury streamer does not.

 

I will take a look at it and see what’s in there. I’m pretty sure they use a raspberry pi SBC, not a compute module. And having the built-in power supply means you can’t add a linear to improve things. Not to say that I’ve designed it so you need that, but as we have all seen from our pi2aes for some folks it can bring some relief to their severe case of nervosa!

 

Has anybody looked into using the Chromecast with Google TV via usb? at the very least as an alternative to TV's toslink for multimedia?
If its as good or better than the deceased chromecast audio, with the addition of having android TV, tidal etc. I think it would be worth consideration.

I couldn't find much online and even less with success (including myself months ago) so i dug up my usb-c hub and brick (anker) and gave it another try. At first audio was quiet as mentioned online but it was just the CCWGTV volume defaulting super low.
TLDR 24/96k output (don't know if it changes per app yet i need to check tidal etc.) sounds great when compared to TV toslink which always felt relaxed and overly smooth.
I haven't tried to compare to my other streamers yet, but it isn't my intent to replace one for another.
I already use a RP3b + Allo Digione + BJC coax and I've been really happy with it and a RPI4 usb in another room.

Would love to hear thoughts on CCWGTV as a replacement for CCA and maybe others

 

FWIW, new-in-box Chromecast Audios are available on Ebay for under $50 now. Somebody apparently found a huge stash of them recently, and the sudden oversupply has driven the prices down.

 

thanks but I don't want to dwell on dead products. besides the CCWGTV is something a lot of people just have so its nice to be able to get at least CCA quality from a multimedia streamer and would love to see how it measures being so low power etc.

 

I need to explain a little more about what I am after when listening to a transport, be it a disc spinner or a network player. After a little experimentation with a couple of the classic, recommended disc spinners (I have not heard many of these, and still keep my eyes on forums for a few more listening opportunities), there is a quality that still seems unique or at least abundant to the spinner. I would call this quality saturation. It is a sense of both ease (less brain processing required to unpack) and that all the original sound is there - whatever the microphone picked up in the studio recording feels accessible in the audio reproduction. The older disc spinners seem to lack a little of the dynamics, and perhaps roll off the frequencies at the highs and lows. I can only assume that what has been called “stately” is one part saturation combined with full impact and a wide frequency range.

I spent some time this weekend separating my DigiOne Signature from the USBridge Signature. I originally purchased a combination box, thinking I could bring a single box to meet events that would play both simultaneously - at least using moOde, this is not possible. In addition to putting the DigiOne into an acrylic case, I also added the Nirvana as a power option. To my ears, the USBridge makes the most of the Shanti power supply I was using - if there was a difference between the two when fed into the DigiOne, it was not easily audible from the DigiOne output:

• Nirvana feeds the clean input of the DigiOne Signature (now separated from the USBridge Signature).
• Shanti high-power output feeds the dirty input of the DigiOne Signature (low-power still feeds the USBridge Signature).
• Stock power supply feeds the Pi2AES (until I have time to A/B power supplies).
• I purchased an additional RPi generation 4 for the DigiOne Signature (which was tied to a generation 3 compute module inside the combination box. Pi-4B 1.2 4GB now feeds the DigiOne and an equivalent performance Pi-4B 1.4 2GB feeds the Pi2AES).
• I installed identical versions of moOde (and applied identical tweaks, various kernel performance improvements - not sure y’all want to know, but the point is these are identical setups).
• Since this is just an A/B, I went directly from transport to Soekris dac2541 > 4-pin XLR > Sennheiser HD580. I’m not looking for engagement or synergy here - I just want to compare the sound.

The changes, to my ear, make the delta between these network transports even smaller. Yet in terms of what I am after, saturation, I still hear more on the Pi2AES. I listened to multiple songs, and ended the day with some classic Police. I hear more of the room, deeper into the pop sound at the start of “Don't Stand So Close to Me”, more details from the percussive striking (not just that the drum was hit, but more how the stick was held), and closer to Sting’s vocals. This is not to say the DigiOne was bad - hardly! I was already digging into the song, and enjoying playback from the DigiOne. The Pi2AES simply dug a little deeper, consistently, in back-to-back listening.

Same deltas as before on the other attributes - impact is a little higher on the Pi2AES. Frequency response across the spectrum is identical - both play the highs and lows equally. And in both these aspects, I think the network players are better than the classic spinners (or maybe the classic spinner needs a recap - I don’t know). I kind of hate comparing, and I could enjoy any of these transports all day. But when listening for saturation, I hear a little more on the Pi2AES. And I hear yet more on the classic spinner, which I almost forgot happens to be a Marantz CD-60. Simply, my focus is not on disc transports, which I think require more work (finding one for sale, tweaking the innards to fix old power supply issues, etc.). My interest and focus is on getting that last whatever to increase the saturation, hoping that the network transports will exceed (or equal) the best of the classic disc spinners.

Pictures, so y'all know I'm crazy :

 

So I know pretty much jack and squat about network streamers and I'm not much better with network shenanigans in general. With the exception of my phone I have no smart devices in my home. I play music exclusively from my laptop from jriver. No streaming services whatsoever.

I just recently acquired an iFi iDSD Pro and Sonnet Hermes to dip my feet into these waters of streamingDLNAwhateveryoucallit.

Starting with the iFi, I eventually figured out how to connect it to my wifi and once I turned on network sharing on my computer I was able to see the device in JRiver's "playing now" options and I could output to it.

A couple weeks later I tried out the Sonnet, but as it was configured only for Roon a friend of mine had to flash a new SD card with Volumio for me. We plugged it in and after a few minutes it too appeared in my "playing now" list as output options.

Now here's the odd catch: Both devices work when my laptop is connected via wifi. When my laptop is docked and the wifi disabled, they no longer work. Is this normal? (yes if I restart jriver both output devices will still appear in my playing now options). If I use the web interface from Volumio, I am able to find my laptop music library and pull music from it to play that way. But pushing music to it doesn't work and gives me an "error failed to decode" message and says "failed to connect to 192.168.100.126 port 52100: no route to host" (126 is my wifi connection).

I guess this isn't the end of the world and I'm making a mountain out of a molehill. I could just reconnect wifi while docked, no big deal. But I'm annoyed that it doesn't work with my wired connection now. Is there something in the settings that I'm missing? I couldn't find anything in volumio. I feel like if it's able to pull then I should be able to push. I know something something that there's some sort of assigned IP permissions things, but I honestly don't understand it.