Drop + Hifiman HE-R7DX closed back electrodynamic Review

Discussion in 'Headphones' started by rhythmdevils, Jan 20, 2022.

  1. Bill-P

    Bill-P Level 42 Mad Wizard

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    Yeah, I don't disagree with you. I kept mentioning that... if this headphone came with a different headband that would clamp it to my head, it would totally sound better.

    Thing is... I tried to bend the headband and such and... I just couldn't get it to press the cups to my ears. It is just what it is. The fact that I can measure what I heard on EARS is also testament to just... how lacking the clamping force is.

    I have tried pressing the cups in during measurements, and it did boost bass significantly, but I didn't post that because it's not very representative of how I heard the thing. If you're interested, I can do that again to both sides and post it.

    But yeah, it's gonna be super polarizing. And that's too bad. I can hear the potential here, and I do like both the price point and comfort. Highly considering asking Drop to let me purchase this one and just... buying the other headband to put on this. I think that'll make it a heck of a lot better.
     
  2. rhythmdevils

    rhythmdevils MOT: rhythmdevils audio

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    You don't seem to understand how to read measurements. you can't just read the graph and take it as gospel. They need to be interpreted. The measurements @Bill-P took are representative of how the headphone will sound to someone if they fit the same way the dummy head fits them. If they fit differently on a human head than the dummy head, the measurements taken will not be representative. Seriously, this is not rocket science.

    I'm getting kind of sick of the new age of everyone owning EARS. I miss the days when @purr1n and Tyll were the only ones measuring headphones with proper analysis included. Now everyone is throwing around measurements and I think it confuses more than it adds to our understanding. (no offense @Bill-P this is not aimed at you, you explained this, but it wasn't understood)

    This is not ASR. We use our brains on SBAF.

    Me too. :p:piratemug:

    I think if they fit well, they're a great headphone, if not, they're clearly not going to sound great. The headband is a f**k up that's for sure.
     
  3. Bill-P

    Bill-P Level 42 Mad Wizard

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    Yep. So... this bothered me enough that I just disassembled the headband and bent it very hardcore. Couple of things:

    1. Yeah, you can bend the headband pretty far...
    2. Welp, so much for replacing headband. The slots for the headband part are like... custom-fit to this one headphone. I.e.: don't expect to be able to just swap in the other headbands (like the hybrid one for instance). It's unfortunately not that easy.

    Pics or it didn't happen:
    [​IMG]

    ^ uh... yeah, not gonna be able to fit the spare headband that I have. Shame.

    Now, for measurements. I finally was able to capture this:

    [​IMG]

    And hey, look, ma! It's a whopping 7dB bass increase per side at 20Hz when clamping force is high!

    [​IMG]

    Yeah, now with much higher clamping force, I think I can finally hear what you're trying to say, @rhythmdevils. It's pretty much night and day.

    Edit:

    Obligatory HD650 and Eikon comparisons:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Will post updated impressions once I have had a few more hours to compare. Not gonna prematurely state anything yet but like... at least it measures a hell of a lot better than before.
     
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  4. Wilewarer

    Wilewarer Almost "Made"

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    Does getting more clamping force on this do anything for the isolation? Hard to imagine wanting a weird-fitting closed headphone if it can't isolate well, that's most of the reason to want closed phones I think. I guess if it really really sounds good enough to compete with pricier stuff...
     
  5. Bill-P

    Bill-P Level 42 Mad Wizard

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    Yes. It's a very significant difference with more clamping force.

    I should email Drop and tell them to ship this headphone with as much clamping force as possible. Both for isolation and for sound quality.
     
  6. yotacowboy

    yotacowboy McRibs Kind of Guy

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    I'm sorry, that headband thing is just a big f**k you from hifiman even if it's not an intentional design decision to solve some engineering problem using their existing gimbal/cup mount. But if it's an intentional design decision... ehhh at what point can we stop participating in the Fang-Bang of immediate obsolescence?
     
  7. Vtory

    Vtory Audiophile™

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    I'm secretly hypothesizing the main purpose of collaboration is to make use of tons of stock legacy headbands in their (either HFM or Drop's) inventory. Drop collaboration hps (4xx, 5xx, x4, and now r7dx too) adhere to that old ones to the weird extent imho.
     
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  8. rhythmdevils

    rhythmdevils MOT: rhythmdevils audio

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    This isn't going to do it I don't think. The problem is the headband design combined with where the gimbals place the cups. This headband cradles the head, all the way from top, around the sides of the head, so it does't allow the cups to clamp and apply pressure to the head. They sit against your head wherever they sit depending on how the headband fits your head. In other words, the headband is incapable of applying more clamping pressure because it's already creadling the sides of your head. They need to put a headband on it like the old suspension headband that holds the weight at the top only, not the sides of the head, so the earpads then move in against the head to hold the weight.

    If they don' t recall these and put a new headband on them, they're going to get soooo many returns it will cost them so much. I sent an email to my contact at Drop warning him. Pretty sure they're going to call it too late but it would be very easy to swap headbands.
     
  9. rhythmdevils

    rhythmdevils MOT: rhythmdevils audio

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    Lower the treble a bit and add some slight ringing at that little 4.5k peak and this is pretty much what I'm hearing from them. Thanks for re-assessing! Cool to see.
     
  10. Clemmaster

    Clemmaster Friend

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    Actually, the f**k you is also in the FR between 6-12kHz. Those bastards!
     
  11. Jinxy245

    Jinxy245 Vegan Puss

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    Thank you for that
    :D:D:D
     
  12. Bill-P

    Bill-P Level 42 Mad Wizard

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    Updated impressions with more clamping force:

    Tonality: now kind of where I'd consider "even-keeled". It's kind of downward slanted but with slight rebound in the upper treble region. Kind of like an "ever so slightly brighter" HD650.

    Bass: still slightly less than what I'm used to. I'd prefer a bit more sub bass here but... it's okay for the most part. Good impact, weight, etc... for the price. In terms of quantity, it's also just right where I'd consider "neutral".

    Midrange: warmer, kind of more relaxed-sounding now. Less of that cupped-hand reverb (maybe having more bass masks this?). Some songs can sound like they're lacking bite/shout even. I'd say midrange is kind of relaxed/smooth and pretty enjoyable. But this can be a bit too dark for some. Female vocals lack a bit of sparkle. Despite being so relaxed/smooth, it's a bit... grainy-sounding? This is definitely not bad for the price and I'm probably nit-picking. But still, it is something to note.

    Treble: still the same as before. Slightly steely/harsh. It's not sibilant but sometimes it's a bit too sharp for my taste. It's like there's some ringing somewhere, like @rhythmdevils mentioned. I can't quite tell if it's 4-5KHz or somewhere much higher, but it's definitely there. Eikon also has this but I can tell the ringing with ZMF Eikon is much higher in frequency.

    Soundstage and Imaging: imaging improved ever so slightly (but it's still not "quite there"), but soundstage suffered quite a bit. I guess more clamping force improves isolation but that also means it decreases air a bit.

    More in-depth measurements:

    Compared against my personal reference: the DIY headphone I made with HD800S drivers and HE90 ear pads. Differences are exactly as I heard them. The R7DX is kind of "good" but bass is more mid-bass focused with less sub than what I'd like. Midrange is also not even enough where it peaks at 1KHz and then just kind of drops off. Treble doesn't offend all the way up to 10KHz but then it just has an insane amount around there (likely accounts for the "elevated treble" feeling) up to 16KHz.
    [​IMG]

    Let's look at CSD since I suspected ringing. And... yeah... (hey, good job for identifying 4-5KHz, @rhythmdevils!)
    [​IMG]

    Compared to the DIY headphone using HD800S drivers. This one also has ringing but it's not as spotlit. Likely because the ringing is much milder and overall treble level is still less than midrange.
    [​IMG]

    And compared to HD650, which is like... pretty much perfect. No ringing at all.
    [​IMG]

    ZMF Eikon CSD... (wow, good job, Zach!)
    [​IMG]

    I think we kind of have a good idea now, right? It's not like the R7DX is bad, given the price but like... yeah, it's got a way to go to compete against the more monstrous headphones in the mid-fi and hi-fi range.

    Also, I won't show them but let's just say... R7DX distortion in the bass region is generally higher than all of the headphones above (DIY, HD650 or Eikon). HD800S and Eikon drivers are the best when it comes to bass distortion. HD650 is the best when it comes to distortion for anything above midrange.
     
  13. loadexfa

    loadexfa MOT: rhythmdevils audio

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    Just got these today, some brief thoughts. I think I'm hearing the same things as RD and BillP. When I added "manual clamp" by pressing on the cups the change in sound matches what is described above and is a really nice improvement.

    Clamped, these are very good for the price, I would have expected more grain and/or less refinement for $150. Without clamp, they're a bit thin and bright.

    My biggest issue is the upper mids are too harsh/elevated for my ears. I believe RD mentioned this in his review and I'm very sensitive to any peaks and harshness in the upper mids. The damn things hurt my ears after a bit. Which is too bad, I like the sound otherwise and was considering how I could get them clamped to use as office headphones. Considering the price point I'd risk removing the cups and bending the headband as BillP did.

    I fiddled a bit with Roon's parametric EQ to try and make these usable but didn't succeed. I'm inexperienced with EQ fiddling, any suggestions on the band(s) I should reduce and by how much? I was playing with 2K up to 4.5K going down -4 to -6 db. I only managed to make them sound weird.

    Edit, day 2 of listening:
    The issue I had with the upper mids is mostly gone with the LauX. Yesterday I was using a ZD prototype amp. Much smoother and better tone. Huh, interesting, I would not have expected that with dynamic drivers and SS over tubes. My iFi iDSD wasn't as bad in the upper mids too but not as good as the LauX. I guess amp synergy matters a lot with these, at least for me. But it's good to know they're usable and I can improve them with more clamp.
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2022
  14. bobfa

    bobfa Acquaintance

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    These look really interesting, I ordered a pair.
     
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  15. loadexfa

    loadexfa MOT: rhythmdevils audio

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    If you're wondering why someone gave you a "Miss Information" response, we prefer to keep the signal to noise ratio as high as possible. We do our best to be sure our posts add useful information for others.

    Speaking of adding useful information for others, I tried bending the headband after removing the cups but didn't get very far. Maybe I wasn't brave enough but it didn't help add clamp. A reviewer on Drop said putting Dekoni nuggets on the headband helped them so I tried that and found an improvement in bass and tone. I think more clamp would be better too but this is definitely "good enough" for use at work or similar. That's fine with me, I never intended for these to compete with my home setup anyways. The Drop reviewer used four nuggets and I only used two. Four is probably overkill.
     
  16. rhythmdevils

    rhythmdevils MOT: rhythmdevils audio

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    I don't think bending the headband is really a realistic answer. This particular headband cradles the head, and wraps from the top of your head around the side, which I pointed out in my initial review. So unless the headband isn't touching all around your head like it is designed to, bending it will just make it tight on your head, but won't move the earpads closer for a better seal.

    Drop knows about the problem, but they already purchased the first batch of headphones. Hopefully they'll negotiate a better headband for the second batch because I think they're going to get so many returns simply because of the headband.
     
  17. roshambo123

    roshambo123 Friend

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    [​IMG]

    Setups:
    Yggdrasil A2 (BAL) + Mjolnir 2
    Yggdrasil A2 (SE) + DarkVoice 336SE
    Modius (SE) + Valhalla 2 (EH 6922)
    Jot 2 (BAL) + Modius
    PC Soundcard + Magni 3+
    iPhone 11

    General Comments
    A lot has already been said about the fucked up headband so I won't belabor that. All my comments are based on the loaner pair as they were delivered. They don't seal correctly on my head and they're seal sensitive. I'll leave the modification suggestions to the experts. I plugged them in and positioned them on my head as best as was possible.

    For $150, the R7DX's aren't the worst set of closed backs you can buy, they aren't bad. For the money, you get a sensitive, decent headphone at a comfortable weight that will produce reasonable clarity out of an iPhone. The clarity is not on the excellent level of the thrice expensive Neumann NDH 20, but the Hifiman's also avoid being too dry and flatly studio "reference" sounding. The R7DX is un-fancy, un-adorned, and generally usable, if not at times enjoyable.

    That being said, their seal sucks and nothing good comes of this. The bass tends to disappear and everything hollows out and the whole situation feels a bit thin. Treble can also be splashy on brighter recordings. My go-to fatigue test is In Flames 'Moonshield' and these do better than the NDH-20's there but there's still enough energy in the highs that if you're treble sensitive they are not something I'd be eager to suggest.

    They don't scale a lot either. While you can tell the difference between Magni 3+ and Jot 2, and yes, the MJ2+Yggdrasil stack sounds a lot better than the iPhone, it's just not extreme chimeric stuff you see elsewhere. They're nothing special out of the high Z Darkvoice. This is not a pair you'd run out to buy an expensive amp for, or maybe even an amp.

    I think there's also some suboptimal situation going on inside the cup. Maybe again it's just the seal but my co-worker who listened on his Valhalla 2 + Modius (SE) stack said he thought they made some mids sound "clipped," like they had been recorded overmodulated. I heard that also on that setup, and I think perhaps there's just some frequencies bouncing around in non-preferable ways that the Valh2 (with warm EH tubes) exaggerated.

    If the seal was fixed, I'm not entirely sure they'd become stellar, although they would be better. If I press them against my head a little, the hollow character goes away, they warm up a bit, and the bass fills out a lot. That being said, that extra bass is pretty boomy and texture-less. Headstage also gets too intimate and blackground goes a bit grayer. Anyway, I find them listenable although unexciting. Decent-ish for the money, maybe more decent with some updates.

    [​IMG]
     
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    Last edited: Feb 10, 2022
  18. bobfa

    bobfa Acquaintance

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    My first impressions are hot and cold. The sound, not broken in is "nice" to my ear, I will comment more later. But my complaint is about the size of the headband. It is too big for me. I have never had this problem before. I have to add abou1/2 in into the band so the earcups do not fall down on my ears. I really do like the light even feel of them.

    Really these are only $150!
     
  19. Vtory

    Vtory Audiophile™

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    Drop/Hifiman HE-R7DX Loaner Impression

    I’ve been spending some time with the loaner HE-R7DX headphones. There are already good reviews/impression posts that left almost nothing to add on my end. My general impression is somewhere between Bill_P and roshambo123. Specific points below. For convenience, I’ll simply call them R7 henceforth.

    During my evaluation, I used the KISS-modded HD6XX as a control. My evaluation was mostly done in the reference rig (see my sig), but there wasn’t any meaningful change when a lesser upstream signal was fed (iPad +dongle).

    Pros
    • Great price. While I don’t think R7s are the best sub-$200 headphones, There isn’t enough closed-back competition at this price. Most headphones priced similarly can’t compete against R7 in wearing experience.
    • Speaking of that, I'd emphasize comfort was really superb. The headband looks outdated at first but it surprisingly fits my head much better than expected. Earpads are large and comfy. Low clamping also works great in long term listening. Insanely comfortable.
    • Spatial presentation is good for the price level. R7 exhibits a decent lateral headstage definition. I hear a bit of cup reverb which helps to mimic environmental reverberation for some tracks.
    Cons
    • While R7’s tonal balance was rather good (particularly for the price), the loaner pair had critical showbreakers in several places. To my liking, midranges do seem fairly suppressed compared to upper bass or lower treble. This makes many vocal tracks nasal, honky, or hollow.
    • They sound a little peaky in highs. I can easily hear nuanced/boosted energy chunks around 4 khz, 7 khz, and 10 khz respectively. Unfortunately they can’t mix well with other treble regions. General treble experience is somewhat piercing and sharp, particularly in modern electronic tracks. I considered EQing but it seemed to take a lot of time to adjust filters to get them sound right -- motivation lost.
    • A little warm and muddy bass isn't favorable but acceptable (more listenable than the issues described above). Voicing seems very similar to HD6X0 but quality-wise a league below (softer and bouncier).
    Etc
    • I experimented to push both cups inward to examine if there was any interesting change. And like others already reported, I also found doing so resulted in more linear bass tonality and less hollow midrange presentation. This suggests R7 has a little room to be improved with proper modding to headband structure. But even if with such improvement, I do think they're far behind serious audiophile headphones in technical capabilities.
    • For this price, I still maintain that the R7's value is solid. For those who want less tonal issues, Senn PC38X or AKG K371 may sound a little better tbh (I do prefer those headphones to R7 regarding tonality) but neither is close to R7's comfort level.
    I may take some measurements tomorrow. But I’m doubting if I can find anything meaningful to add to Bill-P’s great analyses.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2022
  20. ruinevil

    ruinevil Acquaintance

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    Heard these at CanJam NYC a few weeks back. Compared to HE-R10D on the same gear, it sounded much more V-shaped. It also had unpleasant treble when playing the intro to Billy Idol's White Wedding, which the R10D was able to play without sounding unpleasant.
     

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