Oh shit! SINAD can suck my ****s

Discussion in 'Measurement Techniques Discussion' started by Marvey, Jul 2, 2021.

  1. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

    Staff Member Pyrate BWC
    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2015
    Likes Received:
    89,938
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Padre Island CC TX
    Yes, take a THD+N (SINAD) at lower voltage levels to check for noise for gear which is much more voltage sensitive (which of course would be much more sensitive to noise). In fact, do this: take THD and N separately!

    Any THD/N measurement must be tailored for the intent of the device: expected load, sensitivity, etc.

    --

    There is no such thing as a 0.003%THD+N or 120db SINAD amp. However, there is such a thing as an amp that has 0.001% THD+N at rated power (10W) into 8-ohms (with 20kHz bandwidth implied). We need to be very careful and specific when we use the term SINAD or THD+N.

    I mean, we don't go around saying the HD650 is a 60db SINAD headphone. If anyone did, the reply would be this: "go f**k yourself" or "what da f**k are you saying bitch?"

    --

    Now I get the need for simplification. This is why I prefer the use of the GONAD matrix:

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2022
  2. Ox Cart

    Ox Cart Facebook Friend

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2018
    Likes Received:
    209
    Trophy Points:
    33
    Location:
    Austin, TX
    Yes , GONAD is a useful improvement over SINAD. It doesn't answer my question though. What I'm curious about is, if you take a typical well performing solid state amp with high SINAD at or near its max power, hook up a single headphone (or maybe just a resistive load to avoid back EMF problems), vary the SPL/output level and measure just THD using AP's fancy FFT magic to artificially lower the noise floor below the THD, will distortion increase or decrease with level?
     
  3. Soliloqueen

    Soliloqueen Friend

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2015
    Likes Received:
    225
    Trophy Points:
    43
    just found this thread

    this is to be expected, since the output of the amp physically pushes the headphone diaphragm. it's just like how plugging in more appliances slows down the turbine at a power plant. the hpa -> sound waves is not a magic One Way Reaction in any sort of way that could be compartmentalized. The amp and the hp diaphragm are physically coupled. The type of energy just went through a few conversions along the way.

    you can even heat up the board by stopping the diaphragm from moving, it's literally just like the transmission in a car. this is one of those concepts that took me AGES to genuinely grok in EE. It's so easy to think of electricity as an energy that Just Does things but energy is energy and the turbines at the power plant are physically spinning the motor in my vacuum. if i stop the motor with my fingers, the turbine at the power plant slows down a little bit, and the mains hum decreases some immeasurable fraction of a hertz.
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2022
  4. nishan99

    nishan99 Friend

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2019
    Likes Received:
    1,617
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    Layla
    Or measuring with the headphones floating and sealed, air coupling maybe significant enough. It's for sure a better method for repeatable use.
     
  5. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

    Staff Member Pyrate BWC
    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2015
    Likes Received:
    89,938
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Padre Island CC TX
    1. FFT process gain will show a lower noise floor on the spectrum, but the harmonics won't be affected. The calculated SINAD / THD+N isn't affected by FFT process gain. So this is a non-issue.
    2. If we lower the output voltage level from rated max from a power amp, most likely we will get better THD because rated max power is usually taken when 1% THD is reached.
    3. THD will likely do down as voltage output is lowered into a given load. However, at some point THD+N (with the noise component) will go up.
    4. To sum it up THD increases with output level. THD+N is usually V shaped, at lower levels starts off kinda of bad because we are so close to the noise floor, starts to get better at a "sweet spot", and then increases as we go up in output level. Opamps exhibit a checkmark V, when THD+N gets lower lower lower, until the shit suddenly hits the fan.
    However the above is generalizing. Not everything hits follows the expected behavior. See below. The real answer to your question is rather than speculate what happens to THD when the output level is changed: measure it and see! It's best not to always assume.

    upload_2022-1-22_8-46-55.png
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2022
  6. Armaegis

    Armaegis Friend

    Pyrate BWC
    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2015
    Likes Received:
    7,537
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Winnipeg
    Something something induced back EMF, but most importantly... a good way to lose a finger o_O
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Epic Epic x 1
    • List
  7. Ox Cart

    Ox Cart Facebook Friend

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2018
    Likes Received:
    209
    Trophy Points:
    33
    Location:
    Austin, TX
    Yes, I keep toying with the idea of getting a sensitive enough instrument to actually do that.

    Cool, that's what I would have assumed. So, I'll stand by my assertion that for high SINAD devices, harmonic distortion profile will be irrelevant because even in the worst case, it's already inaudible.
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2022
  8. yotacowboy

    yotacowboy McRibs Kind of Guy

    Pyrate Contributor
    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2016
    Likes Received:
    10,845
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    NOVA
    Home Page:
  9. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

    Staff Member Pyrate BWC
    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2015
    Likes Received:
    89,938
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Padre Island CC TX
    Answer is more complex. The problem is that we cannot measure distortion in transients (for example, what I've been trying to do with headphone burst responses), or at least provide a handy number.

    The math used to calculate SINAD requires taking 16k to 32k samples typically. On top of that, we then do that 3 to 5 times and average the results to get rid of noise. The problem with transients is that maybe we have a handful of samples to play with. The math can't work on this.

    I'm convinced the distortion profile, or distribution of harmonics, or even out of band ultrasonic noise may provide hints of transient distortion.

    Otherwise, the Magni 3+ and Heresy should sound exactly the same. Both have similarly super high THD+N into typical headphone loads at typically voltage levels.

    Yet in a level matched triple blind test, I could easily tell the difference between them.

    https://www.superbestaudiofriends.org/index.php?threads/magni-3-heresy-and-3-blind-listening.8663/
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2022
  10. gixxerwimp

    gixxerwimp Professional tricycle rider

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2015
    Likes Received:
    5,776
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    small island claimed by China
    I need a set of calipers.
     
  11. Ox Cart

    Ox Cart Facebook Friend

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2018
    Likes Received:
    209
    Trophy Points:
    33
    Location:
    Austin, TX
    How does the GONAD chart for the Verite on each of those amps compare? Are they interesting with that specific headphone differently?
     
  12. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

    Staff Member Pyrate BWC
    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2015
    Likes Received:
    89,938
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Padre Island CC TX
    For Verite, the results, use the Sennheiser row. Similar sensitivities and impedance.
     

Share This Page