System Synergy - Special Sound

Discussion in 'General Audio Discussion' started by atomicbob, Nov 23, 2021.

  1. Garns

    Garns Friend

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    @Garns

    Scott Kramer said:
    "Anyone try a Freya/Jot?"

    I tried it with them individually, though not together. I could hear no change at all for the Freya (balanced in and balanced out in tube mode) but for the Jot alone it helped make the screwy soundstage less screwy. I wrote some words over in the Jotunheim thread. Probably Freya + Jot + PRT would have something approaching a normal soundstage. I should get my Jot home from work and give it a try!

    Garns, May 31, 2017
     
  2. mrflibble

    mrflibble Friend

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    @mrflibble

    I have been having a quick play with the Bauer stereophonic-to-binaural DSP crossfeed in Linux ALSA. I had to install bs2b-ladspa from the Ubuntu repository as it is a separate LADSPA plugin. It definitely sounds a lot more balanced. Here is the snippet from my ALSA config (I'm including the channel inversion code, because I am using both. bit_perfect is my bit perfect plugin):

    CODE:

    # Invert Right Channel with LADSPA
    # http://nairobi-embedded.org/alsa_ladspa_example_usage.html
    # http://plugin.org.uk/faq.php
    # http://alsa.opensrc.org/Ladspa_(plugin)

    pcm.invert {
    type plug
    slave {
    pcm {
    type ladspa
    slave.pcm "bit_perfect"
    path "/usr/lib/ladspa"
    channels 2

    plugins {
    0 {
    id 1181
    label amp
    policy none
    input.bindings.0 "Input"
    output.bindings.0 "Output"
    input {
    controls [ 0 ]
    }
    }

    1 {
    id 1429
    label inv
    policy none
    input.bindings.1 "Input"
    output.bindings.1 "Output"
    }
    }
    }
    }

    hint {
    show {
    @func refer
    name defaults.namehint.extended
    }
    description "Invert Right Channel"
    }
    }


    # Headphone Crossfeed and Invert with LADSPA
    # https://takla.wordpress.com/tag/bs2b/
    # https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-719273-start-0.html
    # http://bs2b.sourceforge.net/

    pcm.crossfeed_invert {
    type plug
    slave {
    pcm {
    type ladspa
    slave.pcm "invert"
    path "/usr/lib/ladspa"

    plugins [{
    id 0
    label bs2b
    input {
    controls [ 700 10 ]
    }
    }]
    }
    }

    hint {
    show {
    @func refer
    name defaults.namehint.extended
    }
    description "Headphone Crossfeed and Invert Right Channel"
    }
    }
    I haven't got it working with the default sound path in Linux yet. But in DeaDBeeF, VLC etc I just select the "crossfeed_invert" plugin. The first parameter (700) is the low-pass filter cutoff frequency (Hz) and the second parameter is the feed level, the default for this is 45 4.5 (dB) but I have a set it to the minimum value of 10 for the time being.

    Inverting the phase on the Vali 2 gives a noticeable improvement in sound quality. I will post some impressions on the Vali 2 thread at a later date, I'm super busy at the moment.

    ADDENDUM: I have now set the feed level parameter to the default of 4.5 dB.

    Last edited: Jun 1, 2017
    mrflibble, May 31, 2017
     
  3. CEE TEE

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    PAGE 20 of the O.G. thread:
     
  4. CEE TEE

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    @johnjen

    Scott Kramer said:
    "FYI, I asked bitperfect (my favorite macOS "hog" mode player) about the single channel phase switch*, I linked them to @Torq's writeup here: http://superbestaudiofriends.org/in...-single-channel-polarity-phase-reversal.2942/.
    View attachment 8448
    So maybe it'll get it if it's easy!
    *asked if it was buried in a pref file, already there, sure this is a pretty obscure request!
    http://bitperfectsound.blogspot.com
    Anyone try a Freya/Jot?


    It'll be interesting to me to see how far this idea goes.

    JJ
    johnjen, May 31, 2017
     
  5. mrflibble

    mrflibble Friend

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    @mrflibble

    I've got it all working with the default sound path now, just had to get rid of my plug wrappers. Here is my complete ALSA config for reference (the record and convert plugins are an aside, I use them for recording the output from any Linux application):

    CODE:

    # Remember to disable PulseAudio

    # Identify the card by name to avoid maintaining hardcoded numbers ("hw:2,0") that may
    # change depending on what else is plugged into the PC
    #
    # Name: cat /proc/asound/cards or aplay -l
    # http://alsa.opensrc.org/Proc_asound_documentation
    #

    defaults.pcm.rate_converter "speexrate_best"

    pcm.M-AUDIO_ANALOG {
    type hw
    card "Audiophile192"
    device 0
    }

    pcm.M-AUDIO_SPDIF {
    type hw
    card "Audiophile192"
    device 1
    }

    ctl.M-AUDIO {
    type hw
    card "Audiophile192"
    }


    # ALSA dmixer, use instead of PulseAudio
    # http://mondogrigio.blogspot.co.uk/2014/10/how-to-disable-pulseaudio-and-enable.html
    # http://www.alsa-project.org/main/index.php/Asoundrc

    pcm.dmixer {
    type dmix
    ipc_key 1024
    slave {
    pcm "M-AUDIO_SPDIF"
    format "S32_LE"
    rate 48000
    periods 8
    period_time 0
    period_size 1024
    buffer_size 8192
    }

    hint {
    show {
    @func refer
    name defaults.namehint.extended
    }
    description "DMixer Playback"
    }
    }

    pcm.dsnooper {
    type dsnoop
    ipc_key 1025
    slave {
    pcm "M-AUDIO_ANALOG"
    format "S32_LE"
    rate 48000
    periods 8
    period_time 0
    period_size 1024
    buffer_size 8192
    }

    hint {
    show {
    @func refer
    name defaults.namehint.extended
    }
    description "DSnooper Capture"
    }
    }

    pcm.duplex {
    type asym
    # playback.pcm "dmixer"
    playback.pcm "crossfeed_invert"
    capture.pcm "dsnooper"
    }


    # Bit Perfect Playback
    # http://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/stop-resampling-under-linux.575308/
    # http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Linux/ALSA/NoMoreSilence.html

    pcm.bit_perfect {
    type plug
    slave {
    pcm "M-AUDIO_SPDIF"
    format "S32_LE"
    rate "unchanged"
    }

    hint {
    show {
    @func refer
    name defaults.namehint.extended
    }
    description "Bit Perfect Playback"
    }
    }


    # Recording
    # https://www.earth.li/~noodles/blog/2009/02/recording-application-sound-ou.html
    # http://www.alsa-project.org/alsa-doc/alsa-lib/pcm_plugins.html

    pcm.record {
    type file
    slave.pcm "bit_perfect"
    file "/home/mrflibble/alsa_out.wav"
    format "wav"

    hint {
    show {
    @func refer
    name defaults.namehint.extended
    }
    description "Record to File"
    }
    }

    # Convert between float and integer data, then pass to record
    pcm.convert {
    type lfloat
    slave {
    pcm "record"
    format "S32_LE"
    }

    hint {
    show {
    @func refer
    name defaults.namehint.extended
    }
    description "Convert and Record to File"
    }
    }


    # Invert Right Channel with LADSPA
    # http://nairobi-embedded.org/alsa_ladspa_example_usage.html
    # http://plugin.org.uk/faq.php
    # http://alsa.opensrc.org/Ladspa_(plugin)

    pcm.invert {
    type ladspa
    # slave.pcm "plug:dmixer"
    slave.pcm "bit_perfect"
    path "/usr/lib/ladspa"
    channels 2

    plugins {
    0 {
    id 1181
    label amp
    policy none
    input.bindings.0 "Input"
    output.bindings.0 "Output"
    input {
    controls [ 0 ]
    }
    }

    1 {
    id 1429
    label inv
    policy none
    input.bindings.1 "Input"
    output.bindings.1 "Output"
    }
    }
    }

    pcm.invert_plug {
    type plug
    slave.pcm "invert"

    hint {
    show {
    @func refer
    name defaults.namehint.extended
    }
    description "Invert Right Channel"
    }
    }


    # Headphone Crossfeed and Invert Right Channel with LADSPA
    # https://takla.wordpress.com/tag/bs2b/
    # https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-719273-start-0.html
    # http://bs2b.sourceforge.net/

    pcm.crossfeed_invert {
    type ladspa
    slave.pcm "invert"
    path "/usr/lib/ladspa"

    plugins [{
    id 0
    label bs2b
    input {
    controls [ 700 10 ]
    }
    }]
    }

    pcm.crossfeed_invert_plug {
    type plug
    slave.pcm "crossfeed_invert"

    hint {
    show {
    @func refer
    name defaults.namehint.extended
    }
    description "Headphone Crossfeed and Invert Right Channel"
    }
    }


    # Default sound chain
    # https://unix.stackexchange.com/ques...ne-dmix-with-ladspa-plugins-to-default-device

    pcm.!default {
    type plug
    slave.pcm "duplex"
    # slave.pcm "bit_perfect"
    # slave.pcm "record"
    # slave.pcm "convert"
    # slave.pcm "invert"
    # slave.pcm "crossfeed_invert"

    hint {
    show {
    @func refer
    name defaults.namehint.extended
    }
    description "Default Playback"
    }
    }

    Currently listening to Spotify, bit perfect, phase inversion trick, and headphone crossfeed [​IMG]

    Last edited: Jun 1, 2017
    mrflibble, May 31, 2017
     
  6. CEE TEE

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    johnjen

    Since I'm not familiar with the code in what order are you enabling the PRT and crossfeed?
    And what have you noticed as a change?

    JJ
    johnjen, May 31, 2017
     
  7. mrflibble

    mrflibble Friend

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    @mrflibble

    johnjen said:
    "Since I'm not familiar with the code in what order are you enabling the PRT and crossfeed?
    And what have you noticed as a change?
    JJ"


    The order is:

    crossfeed->invert

    Haven't tried inverting first, I think that would mess up the crossfeed.

    I've not had chance to listen in detail yet. But the most obvious changes of the crossfeed are a more "solid" sound (less diffuse) with a more realistic soundstage. And vocals which sound more focused but also more integrated with the rest of the music. I think there is some slight treble roll-off, but am not sure, need to listen some more.

    Inverting the phase on the Vali 2 makes the sound a bit sharper, faster, and cleaner, with slightly more "umph". It is an obvious improvement, but not night and day. It is not an improvement that could be accomplished by a tube swap.

    Both improvements are totally worth it. Crossfeed is free and phase inversion is the cost of a cable [​IMG]

    Time for breakfast!

    ADDENDUM : It was not correct for me to say that the vocals are more focused with crossfeed, but they are more natural and integrated. The volume is lower with crossfeed. There is a reduction in sharpness, I'm not sure if it accurate to call it a veil.

    Last edited: Jun 1, 2017
    mrflibble, Jun 1, 2017
     
  8. Changeling

    Changeling Tube Slut

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    @Changeling

    I've tried using the PRT using a Dragonfy Red and it did not yield a change that I could immediately hear, if at all.

    With Yggdrasil/Mjolnir2 it's a distinct improvement, and I've yet to run it with ModiMB/Vali2.

    Changeling, Jun 1, 2017
     
  9. CEE TEE

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    johnjen

    Changeling said:
    "I've tried using the PRT using a Dragonfy Red and it did not yield a change that I could immediately hear, if at all.
    To me that is interesting in that if I were to guess, the dragonfly isn't really 'powerful' in it's ability to handle very low frequencies, which is where the seat of this tweak resides.

    With Yggdrasil/Mjolnir2 it's a distinct improvement, and I've yet to run it with ModiMB/Vali2."


    And with this gear there is more power in reserve.

    One aspect to pay attention to is digital signal clipping in the DSP stack, or elsewhere for that matter.
    Especially if you are using SSBB and the PRT at the same time.

    These low freq boosted and 'uncorked' signals can eat amp power for lunch.
    And granted we are talking very small amounts of power to feed our cans, even so the amps (with a few exceptions of course) are also scaled down in power, especially in those SubSonic frequency regions.


    JJ
    johnjen, Jun 1, 2017
     
  10. Changeling

    Changeling Tube Slut

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    @Changeling

    johnjen said:
    "And with this gear there is more power in reserve.

    One aspect to pay attention to is digital signal clipping in the DSP stack, or elsewhere for that matter.
    Especially if you are using SSBB and the PRT at the same time."


    Yep, I've got a -6db headroom set up to avoid clipping and so far it works well.

    It'll be interesting to hear the Vali2, need to find time to listen...
    Changeling, Jun 1, 2017
     
  11. CEE TEE

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    TheIceman93

    atomicbob said:
    "Currently listening to a very similar setup to yours @batriq
    View attachment 8366
    Using this one pictured above for dialogue editing and recreational listening during breaks.
    And this one receives a lot of listening time as well:"


    @atomicbob ... any reason why you don't run the Jot in high gain mode? Just curious since most users seem to prefer it that way.

    TheIceman93, Jun 1, 2017
     
  12. CEE TEE

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    frenchbat

    I tried to run the reverse polarity and inverse the right channel on my amp but it seems like there's a protection against wrong wiring. No dice for me.
    frenchbat, Jun 1, 2017
     
  13. cskippy

    cskippy Creamy warmpoo

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    @cskippy

    If you do it via software and the phase reversal cable after either a single ended or balanced output the amp doesn't now the difference. it's just messing with the audio signal which won't effect any electronics.
    cskippy, Jun 1, 2017
     
  14. CEE TEE

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    frenchbat

    I tried twice already, and I just don't get any sound on the right channel, so yeah it seems like it's possible.
    frenchbat, Jun 1, 2017
     
  15. CEE TEE

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    johnjen

    frenchbat said:
    "I tried to run the reverse polarity and inverse the right channel on my amp but it seems like there's a protection against wrong wiring. No dice for me."

    That sounds like the amp is 'protecting itself' which means the right channel output is being shorted to ground.
    As in you're connecting to a single ended (vs balanced) output connection, where there is a common ground in use.

    JJ
    johnjen, Jun 1, 2017
     
  16. cskippy

    cskippy Creamy warmpoo

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    @cskippy

    The issue might be in how @frenchbat is trying to flip the phase of the channel. You don't need to do anything to the amp, leave cabling alone. Just an adapter for the headphones and software channel phase reversal. If you are doing the right channel phase reversal with balanced cabling make sure you are swapping the right pins. Swap 2 and 3, + and - respectively. Leave pin one as it's the ground reference.
    cskippy, Jun 1, 2017
     
  17. atomicbob

    atomicbob dScope Yoda

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    @atomicbob

    TheIceman93 said:
    "@atomicbob ... any reason why you don't run the Jot in high gain mode? Just curious since most users seem to prefer it that way."

    I am very sensitive to residual mains hum and I have a listening environment achieving below NC15. Most people are listening with ambient background noise much higher, which will mask hum and noise on most equipment, that I can hear in my environment. Looking at the following spectrum charts we observe the high setting has 10 dB more mains hum than the low setting. I would rather trade lower mains hum for other attributes given my sensitivities.

    Jotunheim residual mains hum - high gain setting
    Jotunheim residual mains hum - low gain setting
    atomicbob, Jun 1, 2017
     
  18. CEE TEE

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    frenchbat

    Johnjen and cskippy, I'm listening on a benchmark AHB2 which is a fully differential amp. There is no SE connector on either side, but it's not so far-fetched that benchmark included a protection anyway.

    In theory I should be in the easiest situation, since my hps are connected with straight wires, and inverting the polarity in one channel is very easy and straightforward.

    It's not exactly a big deal if I can't get it to work, there are always exceptions to the rule.
    frenchbat, Jun 1, 2017
     
  19. cskippy

    cskippy Creamy warmpoo

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    @cskippy

    Oh, gotcha. I was actually interested in that exact setup doing phase reversal in software and then flipping the + - banana plugs. Hmmmmm.... I wouldn't think the amp could tell the difference since the load is the same either way but I'm no expert.
    cskippy, Jun 1, 2017
     
  20. CEE TEE

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    johnjen

    So you have 4 wires that run directly, and are not interconnected, to your balanced headphones from the output from the amp?
    And by reversing the 2 wires for the right channel at the output from the amp, that channel goes dead?

    That is very odd.

    Do you have speakers that you can connect to the amp and try them?

    edit…
    One last thought.
    Leave the headphones connected so they work and just flip the channel polarity in s/w and see if just reversing the polarity causes the right channel to 'protect' itself.
    It might be that the fancy protection circuit is doing a signal comparison between the 2 channels and having them phase reversed will trip the protection.
    Just a thought.

    JJ
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2017
    johnjen, Jun 1, 2017
     

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