System Synergy - Special Sound

Discussion in 'General Audio Discussion' started by atomicbob, Nov 23, 2021.

  1. cskippy

    cskippy Creamy warmpoo

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    @cskippy

    That's a good suggestion with speakers. The second thought just doesn't make sense that the amp would check the audio as it would be limiting for professional use. Make sure you have everything setup up before playing any audio and see if that changes anything.

    cskippy, Jun 1, 2017
     
  2. CEE TEE

    CEE TEE MOT: NITSCH

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    frenchbat

    Unfortunately I don't have speakers to try out. But I was thinking the same as you johnjen , some channel management getting in the way of the tweak. The benchmark is a digitally managed power amp, so channel tracking to adapt the power is a possibility.

    Not like I feel like I'm missing anything anyway. The NX plug-in is a fun thing to play with but there is a hit on resolution with good recordings. I think it deserves its own thread nonetheless.
    frenchbat, Jun 1, 2017
     
  3. atomicbob

    atomicbob dScope Yoda

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    @atomicbob

    frenchbat said:
    "Johnjen and cskippy, I'm listening on a benchmark AHB2 which is a fully differential amp. There is no SE connector on either side, but it's not so far-fetched that benchmark included a protection anyway.

    In theory I should be in the easiest situation, since my hps are connected with straight wires, and inverting the polarity in one channel is very easy and straightforward.

    It's not exactly a big deal if I can't get it to work, there are always exceptions to the rule."


    If the AHB2 protection circuit is activating then it implies a short circuit downstream. There should be no reason to provide such protection on 180 degree phase difference between channels. You can try testing that by flipping polarity in the digital player while leaving the headphones connected normally. It will sound odd but the protection feature should not activate. It would be helpful if you had access to a digital multimeter and could check resistance on the headphone connector when in the reverse configuration to check for 0 ohms on one channel.

    All that said, given the fully balanced topology of the AHB2 I would expect minimal, if any, change. Balancing of power and ground are already optimized. So why the protection activation is more academic for the rest of our knowledge but probably not useful to you.

    Lastly, I do not perceive a hit on resolution with the IVS system once I have it configured (personalized) for my listening. In fact I am better able to better hear mix problems and details that otherwise are experienced more as a jumble of sounds less distinguishable.

    atomicbob, Jun 2, 2017
     
  4. CEE TEE

    CEE TEE MOT: NITSCH

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    PAGE 21 of the O.G. thread:
     
  5. CEE TEE

    CEE TEE MOT: NITSCH

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    frenchbat

    Hi @atomicbob I swear I'm not trying to pee in your cornflakes, I just describe what I perceive. But as I was hinting earlier, I do think the IVS deserves its own thread, as there's a lot to process and discuss.

    I perceived a relative loss of resolution on three records so far:
    Dire Straits / Dire Straits (UIGY-9634 Japanese SACD SHM version)
    Joao Gilberto / Getz & Gilberto (UDCD 607 Gold Cd edition)
    Pink Floyd / The Wall (UDCD 537 Gold Cd edition)

    However I felt a gain on other records, which mastering isn't as stellar. Daft Punk RAM is one such records

    EDIT : I tried the software reverse polarity alone, and it does what it's supposed to do, i.e. messing up with the audio image.

    EDIT2 : For good measure, I tested the channels on my hps to make sure they weren't wired wrong. They aren't.

    frenchbat, Jun 2, 2017
     
  6. atomicbob

    atomicbob dScope Yoda

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    @atomicbob

    Hi @frenchbat - I didn't take it in a negative way. I only wanted to point out I had a differing experience including working with tracks from studio sessions where we are about as close to the source as one gets. Both sets of perceptions should be duly noted and those wishing to experiment be prepared for the old YMMV. I agree that this probably should get moved to another thread to avoid diluting this thread too much.

    Dire Straits Brothers in Arms is one of the albums on which I really feel the IVS helps rather than hinder the feeling of immersion. Why Worry and Ride Across the River give me goose bumps every time. I should look into the album you suggest as I am positive I will enjoy it even if there is a loss of resolution with my system.

    atomicbob, Jun 2, 2017
     
  7. CEE TEE

    CEE TEE MOT: NITSCH

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    frenchbat

    I don't think it was necessary to reiterate the interest of the IVS, I am actually the dissenting voice here. Lots of components in the IVS, some I don't use because they are not useful to me, and my system is different than yours.

    Specifically with those three albums, I feel the stereo image being constrained in a smaller space, which is not surprising as their mastering gives a really wide image in the first place. Wider than the NX settings (25/60) anyway. And doing so, I feel like there's a loss.

    Btw for the channel flipper I think I might have understood the problem. I'll check whenever I have a moment. Problem might rely with the headphones / chair interface.

    EDIT: checked I wasn't inverting the wrong channel. I wasn't, so the benchmark definitely doesn't like the flipper trick for some reason.

    Last edited: Jun 3, 2017
    frenchbat, Jun 2, 2017
     
  8. abraxas666

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    @abraxas666

    @atomicbob

    I will be updating my Bifrost Multibit to either a Gungnir Multibit or an Yggdrasil. My search for an amp last year brought me to this same thread, and I decided to buy a PSIII amp along with a talema linear power supply. With the HD650 this is a very compelling setup.

    So I am curious about the following.
    How do you feel about running the Yggdrasil, with the PSIII amp along with HD650\HD800 headphones? Is some of that "synergy" still there?

    abraxas666, Jun 2, 2017
     
  9. abraxas666

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    @abraxas666

    After readin my post from last night, I guess it is sort of a redundant question. But due to my limited budget, I dont plan to buy a new amp until next year if possible.

    abraxas666, Jun 3, 2017
     
  10. atomicbob

    atomicbob dScope Yoda

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    @atomicbob

    abraxas666 said:
    "@atomicbob
    I will be updating my Bifrost Multibit to either a Gungnir Multibit or an Yggdrasil. My search for an amp last year brought me to this same thread, and I decided to buy a PSIII amp along with a talema linear power supply. With the HD650 this is a very compelling setup.
    So I am curious about the following.
    How do you feel about running the Yggdrasil, with the PSIII amp along with HD650\HD800 headphones? Is some of that "synergy" still there?"


    Have a look at the very first post in this thread here
    Yggdrasil and Gungnir MB are very close in resolution and overall sound. Either will be satisfying but Gungnir is 1/2 the price and easier to transport to events.

    atomicbob, Jun 5, 2017
     
  11. abraxas666

    abraxas666 Friend

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  12. mrflibble

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    @mrflibble

    Listened a bit more to the bs2b crossfeed dsp. It loses quite a lot of sparkle and excitement from the music, prefer to listen without. Still, I think it is worth trying - doesn't cost anything [​IMG]

    I had a play with two more crossfeeder plugins, but in Foobar2000 running under WINE. They are MathAudio Headphone EQ and Meier Crossfeed. Of these two, I think the Meier Crossfeed at a low crossfeed setting had the least detrimental effect on the sound. Haven't worked out how to use the headphone eq yet.

    mrflibble, Jun 6, 2017
     
  13. gixxerwimp

    gixxerwimp Professional tricycle rider

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    @gixxerwimp

    frenchbat said:
    "The NX plug-in is a fun thing to play with but there is a hit on resolution with good recordings.

    So you were eventually able to get NX working on your system? And I agree, IVS deserves its own thread (even though I probably won't get to taste it with my current system)."


    gixxerwimp, Jun 12, 2017
     
  14. CEE TEE

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    frenchbat

    Yes gixxerwimp it was a matter of version, and something is broken in the last update. I ended up buying the plug-in to be able to try. Can't say it was lost money, as there's some merit. As usual better trying for yourself.
    frenchbat, Jun 12, 2017
     
  15. Changeling

    Changeling Tube Slut

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    @Changeling

    So.
    With me leaving tube slut mode for a while here's one thing I'd like to try before moving to solid state around October-April depending on work:

    I'm intrigued to try the Phonitor SPL's 'Angle' setting and compare that with Waves NX head to head. Combined with Sonarworks systemwide, Roon PEQ for SSBB and Roon PEQ phase flip right channel, I would then like to compare the setup with @atomicbob IVS which I've been running with very satisfying results.

    I think the bass boost will not be as good as using DMGAudios EQuick but if it's close enough this might be a way back to using Roon again.

    It's essentially the same settings as we're running in the IVS but with the Phonitor amp doing the final tweaks instead of Waves NX wrapped in Metaplugin.

    Any thoughts on this @atomicbob ?

    Now:
    Is there a European willing to loan me an SPL Phonitor 2 for a couple of weeks? I'll cover all costs for shipping etc.
    Or how's Thomanns return policy?

    If this doesn't compare to IVS, I'll be taking the Phonitor out of my list to match with my new IVS-Lynx-Yggdrasil chain.

    I think there's 'new' solid state system synergies to be heard and rediscovered together with the IVS and I'm determined to find such a combo in the upcoming year.

    Changeling, Jun 17, 2017
     
  16. CEE TEE

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  17. atomicbob

    atomicbob dScope Yoda

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    @atomicbob

    Changeling said:
    "*edit* It's essentially the same settings as we're running in the IVS but with the Phonitor amp doing the final tweaks instead of Waves NX wrapped in Metaplugin.

    Any thoughts on this @atomicbob ?"


    I've heard the Phonitor at meets. The crossfeed system did not impress me to the level Waves NX has. It is a competent headphone amp though doesn't tick enough boxes in my preference list for me.

    Two other headphone amps you may wish to add to your list are the Hafler HA75 (does have a 12AX7 in the voltage gain position) and the 535SE which have threads on this forum. Both are interesting to me.

    atomicbob, Jun 18, 2017
     
  18. Changeling

    Changeling Tube Slut

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    @Changeling

    atomicbob said:
    "I've heard the Phonitor at meets. The crossfeed system did not impress me to the level Waves NX has. It is a competent headphone amp though doesn't tick enough boxes in my preference list for me.

    Two other headphone amps you may wish to add to your list are the Hafler HA75 (does have a 12AX7 in the voltage gain position) and the 535SE which have threads on this forum. Both are interesting to me."


    Ah! So many amps I haven't heard about. The Hafler seems like an interesting option.
    I'm also demoing the Violectric V281 which doesn't have the ability to 'resize' the soundstage but seems like a very powerful amp which I think is key in system synergy / IVS systems...
    Changeling, Jun 18, 2017
     
  19. k1arg

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    @k1arg

    I have heard the new Phonitors at meets, and they didn't really grab me TBH. Meet conditions, etc., but the crossfeed had too strong an influence on the FR for me: the bass was significantly cut. I'm not entirely sure, but I think that the sub-bass was not. I tried with HD650 and then switched to TH-X00 (or maybe they were E-MUs?) and the sub-bass was ridiculous, bouncing the earpads and whatnot. (But maybe the TH-X00 are just not my thing.) But other than the bass, it seemed nicely smooth. Still, didn't motivate me to set up a longer audition. On that front though, it was a distributor at the meet, and they seemed very receptive to the idea of doing an in-home audition without having to buy and return. This was in the UK, but perhaps something similar is possible there.

    k1arg, Jun 24, 2017
     
  20. Changeling

    Changeling Tube Slut

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    @Changeling

    k1arg said:
    "I have heard the new Phonitors at meets, and they didn't really grab me TBH. Meet conditions, etc., but the crossfeed had too strong an influence on the FR for me: the bass was significantly cut. I'm not entirely sure, but I think that the sub-bass was not. I tried with HD650 and then switched to TH-X00 (or maybe they were E-MUs?) and the sub-bass was ridiculous, bouncing the earpads and whatnot. (But maybe the TH-X00 are just not my thing.) But other than the bass, it seemed nicely smooth. Still, didn't motivate me to set up a longer audition. On that front though, it was a distributor at the meet, and they seemed very receptive to the idea of doing an in-home audition without having to buy and return. This was in the UK, but perhaps something similar is possible there."

    I'm trying to replicate the IVS with RME ADI-2 Pro which has a 4 step cross feed, but also a stereo width setting. I still haven't come close to what @atomicbob has created with the IVS, and especially with using Waves NX.

    The Violectric is still on my shortlist for auditioning, but I'm starting to wonder whether the ADI-2 is going to be send back or not...initial impression is very positive.

    Changeling, Jun 24, 2017
     

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