Linear vs. minimum phase upsampling: What do you actually hear?

When I found out that NOS + external upsampling sounds very good to my ears on my RU6, I compared linear and minimum phase upsampling (in Roon) a bit and quickly settled on minimum phase which sounded better to me.

A short discussion in profile posts had me find out that I misremembered minimum phase as being the one closer to the source, and of course, nervosa set in. So I did a lot of comparisons during the last few days.

It stayed as before: I like minimum phase better.

And I would like to know what you actually hear when you compare the two. Is it the same as I hear? Is it different for different DACs?

Please don’t talk about why one might be theoretically better than the other in this thread. I want to know what you actually hear, not what theory says.

So, what I hear in Roon upsampling (Max PCM rate, power of 2, precise, minimum/linear phase) > RU6 bal > Jot 2 bal > Clear Mg is the following:

• Minimum phase sounds more real to me, especially with studio recordings. It’s as if minimum phase adds a room compared to linear phase, which more sounds like music played in an anechoic chamber (which is the truth, of course ). Also, this adds something like a mild crossfeed effect. The soundstage opens up.
• Voices sound clearer to me with minimum phase. They are pushed forward in the mix, and I perceive more plankton.
• The same is true for the lower frequencies, but this time for linear phase. The longer I switched back and forth, the less I could hear this difference, though.
• All in all linear phase seemed a bit more precise than minimum phase, but I was never sure if I really heard that or if this was more some expectation bias.
• EDIT, forgot that before: From 96 kHz source upwards, to my ears the two filters produce a nearly identical sound.

I hate these A/B sessions. At the beginning, when I first switched from minimum to linear phase after weeks of listening to minimum phase only, it was completely obvious that I didn’t like linear phase, that it sounded off, flat, and unnatural. The more I switched back and forth, the smaller the differences seemed to become, and only in the end it became clearer to me again why I liked minimum phase better. As always, I should just have stayed with minimum phase and be done with it.

Anyway, I’m still curious if any of you have also compared the two, and what you heard.

 

Compared, hated min phase and research suggested it was a Bob Stuart red herring. Archimago's blog had the best discussion I found on the topic including a poll and impressions of ~ 50 listeners blind testing the same tracks with min and linear phase upsampling.

I am truly shocked to read that you like it!

 

Yes, and in Archimago’s poll, there was a preference for minimum phase, although a small one.

EDIT: To clarify, one sample showed a clear preference towards linear phase, two showed less clear preferences towards minimum phase. So, actually, the preference seems to be more or less evenly spread.

 

For those unfamiliar (like me) ...
http://archimago.blogspot.com/2015/07/the-linear-vs-minimum-phase-upsampling.html

 

I always joked it had to do with how our brains operate.

 

There are a whole series of posts, not just the initial poll and discussion eg

http://archimago.blogspot.com/2015/07/the-linear-vs-minimum-phase-upsampling_16.html

http://archimago.blogspot.com/2018/01/audiophile-myth-260-detestable-digital.html

 

Thanks, I actually missed the impressions and the other posts.

 

The test is not of linear phase vs minimum phase in typical listening -- we shouldn't infer any preference for typical listening. The test is artificial and is set up to exaggerate ringing effects.

The research question is this: given what are clearly extremely steep filter settings that induce very significant amounts of ringing in the time domain (thus potentially audible), do test subjects (naturalistic public sample of music lovers/audiophiles) significantly show preference for either the linear or minimal phase setting?

 

It depends, actually.

With the Timeless (without Jot 2 between RU6 and headphones), I prefer linear phase as it cleans up the sound a bit, provides more clarity there.

I also tried it for just a few minutes with the Ananda I’m selling (Jot in between). Weirdly, the effect I heard was the opposite of what I hear with the Clear Mg, i. e. some “added room” effect with linear phase, not with minimum phase. Take that with a grain of salt, I only listened for a few minutes, but it seems that the difference between those two kinds of upsampling depends a lot on the gear used.