Topping and SMSL with ASR Punking Us on DACs?

Discussion in 'Digital: DACs, USB converters, decrapifiers' started by purr1n, Oct 23, 2022.

  1. Merrick

    Merrick A lidless ear

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    $959.99, they’re going to keep inching the new releases closer and closer to $1k a dollar at a time.
     
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  2. Thad E Ginathom

    Thad E Ginathom Friend

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    High resolution models: by .001 cent at a time.
     
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  3. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    ^ This is exactly what I've been trying to point out in this thread with respect to the Topping and SMSL crap from Shenzhen Audio. Give in another week or so, and Amir will be publishing the SINAD of this DAC to be Topping over the old Topping on the bar graph at 124.1db. It's stupid.
     
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  4. Armaegis

    Armaegis Friend

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    I feel like we should replicate his chart with appropriately sized error bars for perspective.
     
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  5. GoldenOne

    GoldenOne Friend

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    I'm just struggling to understand how a tenth of a decibel can be justified in this situation at all.
    Even doing everything you can to reduce external influence, being in an 'emi-clean' environment, clean and regulated power etc, starquad cables and whatnot, there is just no way any device is going to show a result that consistent.

    Doing things to a single decibel was already dubious enough at the higher end of things, but to the TENTH of a decibel is at best misleading to readers and at worst all too easily allows the one doing the measurements to just pick which device is going to come out on top.

    The measurements can fluctuate by quite a bit and whichever one 'wins' is going to be entirely dependent on when you take the screenshot or which one you WANT to win.
     
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  6. GoldenOne

    GoldenOne Friend

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    [​IMG]

    Here's a device's SINAD in realtime for example.
    What number do we give it?

    Take the screenshot at the right moment and it dips into the 122.X range.
    Sometimes it's just over 124dB

    So do we give it 122dB? 123dB? 124dB?
    And if you're going by 0.1dB how on earth do you fairly determine what value to pick?

    An easy answer could maybe be to record values over time and take an average, but then what about devices that sometimes get higher SINAD, but perhaps go between 122 and 124dB, vs something that is more stable in the 123dB range? How do you factor in consistency?
     
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  7. Merrick

    Merrick A lidless ear

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    @GoldenOne My takeaway from your posts (and Marv's and Bob's) is that there is simply no way to present the information in the way Amir has if the intention is to have any degree of honesty or integrity. The graph he maintains at ASR would have to have so many asterisks and provisos that anyone would be able to see it is not useful. The fact that he does maintain as it is indicates this his intentions are to deliberately mislead people.
     
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  8. Cooper32

    Cooper32 Facebook Friend

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    Multiple measurements of the same UUT (unit under test) at different times and different operators. Switch to another UUT (different amp/DAC model) and repeat. Repeat until sufficient statistical confidence.

    Basically a gauge R&R (repeatability and reproducibility) study to get the total measurement variation that your test equipment and measurement process has. Way, way overkill for a hobby but that would the methodical way of going about it.

    For some perspective, it takes us months to design a gage R&R, test plan, get parts, execute it, and analyze data for, say, a pressure measurement process.

    Not advocating that this should be done in audio measurements. After all, we're here to have fun. What I do advocate is the sort of transparency in measurement uncertainty that we've seen in this thread (see @atomicbob's and @GoldenOne's examples). We (SBAF) seem to get it.

    This will never be possible to convey to ASR. @Merrick said it best:
     
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  9. atomicbob

    atomicbob dScope Yoda

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  10. Armaegis

    Armaegis Friend

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    Hey guys, did you ever see this cool video about a self-moving dartboard?


    Sorry, that image by Bob above reminded me of this, I know it's not related to the thread at all...
     
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  11. Thad E Ginathom

    Thad E Ginathom Friend

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    I think I like this much more than moving goalposts!
     
  12. murray

    murray Friend

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    @Thad E Ginathom I’m actually imaging that dartboard technology applied to actual goalposts - on a rail that moves side to side :p
     
  13. SSL

    SSL Friend

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    It's basically been done.
     
  14. Thad E Ginathom

    Thad E Ginathom Friend

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    Sean Olive had a device that silently moved speakers around behind an acoustically transparent curtain.

    People might not like his curves --- but I thought the speaker blind-test machine was brilliant. The sort of thing that only be done if one has commercial resources at the fingertips.
     
  15. GoldenOne

    GoldenOne Friend

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    Sort of, and I want to try to be clear just so there's no misunderstanding of accusation being made.

    I'm not saying that the data Amir is providing is false. The data is true, its just that displaying it as a static figure is misleading.

    The measured SINAD of a device will fluctuate especially when you're at the limits of the measurement hardware. Saying a DAC has 123.4dB SINAD is equivalent to saying the UK temperature is definitively 20C and the temperature in florida is definitively 15C just because it happened to be at the moment in time you measured it. When actually florida is hotter than the UK for the vast majority of the time. But the static figures don't tell you that.

    Amir is not falsifying any information. Its just that presenting it in this fashion implies a degree of precision or consistency that simply doesn't exist. And I can't see any reason to do this other than if the main goal is to provide a method of purchase justification to readers.

    If he were to start providing min/max/avg figures to the tenth of a decibel, that would make much more sense. But providing a single figure with the implication that it is exact and definitive is misleading.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 6, 2022
  16. 7seven

    7seven Acquaintance

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    For that particular unit
     
  17. GoldenOne

    GoldenOne Friend

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    Yes, though whilst it would certainly be ideal for Amir to measure only true retail units rather than ones provided by manufacturers, in practice this would be incredibly expensive and impractical.

    It's not ideal, but I don't think it's fair to expect this, be it from Amir, or any other reviewer.
    I certainly couldn't afford to buy all the things I review for example.
     
  18. Baten

    Baten Friend

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    AK4499EX? Why just not go AK45XX at that point? :D
     
  19. Pancakes

    Pancakes Friend

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    So the next one can be AK4499.3EX.
     
  20. Lyander

    Lyander Official SBAF Equitable Empathizer

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    Don't give Sony ideas for new phone or DAP names.
     
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