Good sound quality with streaming is not possible without using optical fiber

Discussion in 'Audio Science' started by econaut, Aug 14, 2022.

  1. Gazny

    Gazny MOT: ETA Audio

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    Rectification, some engineers care about signals outside of Nyquist because they can interfere with other aspects of design not just audibility even if "people can't hear past 14k".
     
  2. Thad E Ginathom

    Thad E Ginathom Friend

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    I don't know, but I'm sure it shits itself in horror when it suddenly has to face cables replaced with audio cables, and capacitors with names that make audiophiles swoon. It just gives up. Right?
     
  3. Garns

    Garns Friend

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    No, unless something is very wrong it will still be bit perfect.
    I mean this is a factor but my impression is that this is largely inherent to the digital source and receiver and not how they are coupled. Not sure I buy into, e.g., characteristic impedance making much difference for audio, at least I've never heard anything to convince me.
    Yes, this. I mean, just EM noise in general from whatever source. Normally manifests as hash or sibilance in the treble, blunted transients or a kind of murkiness in positioning in the stereo field. Seems much easier to hear over speakers than headphones. My power conditioner has some kind of EM trap on the ground and it cleans up digital stuff a treat.
     
  4. Thad E Ginathom

    Thad E Ginathom Friend

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    Jitter and Ethernet

    I'm not certain that this has been suggested, but might have seen the word clock somewhere, might have taken it out of context, or even got the wrong end of the stick.

    I could google. I could check out one of the many free tcp/ip courses on the the net, but it it easier to ask mates...

    It's been over twenty years, and networking was never a main interest for me, but, expert mates, am I right...

    Ethernet tcp/ip is not clocked. There is no timing of packets sent out. they just get sent out. There is no guarantee that they will even arrive in the correct order: the receiving system is responsible for putting it all together and reporting anything missing, which will be resent. UDP is more basic and doesn't even have a mechanism for retransmitting packets that vanished or got broken. Ethernet is a sort-of rouch-and-ready sling-it-out-the-door system --- which works. Magnificently. But it is nowhere near, not even close, not even intended to be a real-time system.

    Is that, kindergarten level,a correct understanding?

    if yes...

    Doesn't that make it utterly unsuitable for audio? No, it doesn't. It's unreliability is so reliable that it is way ahead of audio requirements. The internet can do all this stuff, over multiple physical media and protocols, around a planet, let alone from one room to another. Again, refer Archimago: he's done that test.

    The computers that we use actually cause much more concern, because they (or at least their operating systems) are not real-time. And this can, audibly in the real world (even to deaf guys like me) be very audible. Like pops and dropouts.

    Try a dose of DPC latency problems to make you feel like throwing the box out of an upstairs window. most people don't and won't experience it, but enough do. It is no audiophool imagination when the music just stops for half a second, or you can hear you mouse moving across the screen. Yes, I am a DPC-Latency survivor!
     
  5. m.i.c.k.e.y

    m.i.c.k.e.y Facebook Friend

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    Late to the party, and decided to do some experimentatiions.
    My Fiber Optic media converter arrived today consisting of:
    10Gtek Gigabit Fiber Media Converter w/ Pair of Bidi SFP Singlemode Simplex LC Module (Kit #5)
    10Gtek OS2 LC to LC Duplex Fiber Patch Cable 0.5m
    TOPPING P50 LPS
    USB Type A Male to 90 Degree Barrel Connector Charging Cable 5.5 x 2.5mm DC 5V 80cm
    Veetop Ethernet LAN Cat 8 RJ45 Cable 0.25

    Initial Impressions: Uplift in resolution, separation, blacker background, a bit more analog(?) to my system.

    Verdict: For 220Eur total, yes a keeper.

    Pics or it did not happen:

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
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  6. Kernel Kurtz

    Kernel Kurtz Friend

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    We use setups like that to create electrical isolation on devices like wireless bridges installed on towers. It is amazing how far a lightning strike can propagate over CatX cable. I've also noted opto-isolation built in to various audio equipment, presumably mostly to prevent ground issues.

    But I'm curious why your chose single mode over multi mode for a half meter run? Those SFPs are rated for 20km, I can guarantee you are way over spec optical power. Not meaning to feed your audio nervosa but you should consider some attenuators.
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2022
  7. internethandle

    internethandle Almost "Made"

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    Didn’t know Topping made an LPS, but makes sense, I guess.

    The ability of Chinese firms to accurately figure out what western audiophiles will spend money on, no matter how niche, never ceases to amaze me. I remember the days at least ten years ago when HDPlex and AliExpress fodder like “TeraDak” were the only companies offering (nominally) ATX spec LPSes for servers and such and it’s literally only been the last couple of years that western firms have caught up to that.

    If you really want to drive yourself nuts, you can wade over to AudiophileStyle and look at SFP shootouts/comparisons (don’t do this).
     
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  8. Kernel Kurtz

    Kernel Kurtz Friend

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    I had to look. Makes me shake my head.
     
  9. m.i.c.k.e.y

    m.i.c.k.e.y Facebook Friend

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    The kit came in cheap. Thank you for your advice on the attenuators.
    Or i'll change to this: https://www.amazon.it/dp/B08G4BJY6K/?psc=1&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2022
  10. Kernel Kurtz

    Kernel Kurtz Friend

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    Yeah, I'd go with that. Multimode is intended for buildings or datacenters rather than long haul and is going to be far less picky about getting the laser power levels just right. Operating your optical network within spec is important, TX and RX errors will start to increase on either upper or lower bounds of that. Without test equipment, or being able to look at interface error counters on endpoints, the best you will be able to do is try to stay within recommended operating range. Can't personally comment on any audio magic that may come from SFPs LOL. They send ones and zeroes really fast. Brighter ones won't actually help.
     
  11. rhythmdevils

    rhythmdevils MOT: rhythmdevils audio

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    This thread is bananas.
    B
    A
    N
    A
    N
    A
    S
     
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  12. Thad E Ginathom

    Thad E Ginathom Friend

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    Good sound quality with streaming is not possible without using bananas
     
  13. m.i.c.k.e.y

    m.i.c.k.e.y Facebook Friend

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    They even named a speaker connector for that...
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2022
  14. neogeosnk

    neogeosnk Friend

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    Glad to see you finally made it here @m.i.c.k.e.y !
     
  15. m.i.c.k.e.y

    m.i.c.k.e.y Facebook Friend

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    Hey Bud! Been around. Not that active as a poster, but am here...


    If I had just found this first. Teradak is long time ch-fi LPS/DAC maker. It seems it got all for a media converter:
    https://kamaudio.com/TeraDak-T-S211-media-converter

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    Gigabit Ethernet Media Converter.

    Clock: TCXO or OCXO available.


    Features:
    Low-noise linear regulated power supply
    High quality R-core transformer
    EMI filter for reducing AC power noise
    High quality power regulation with Rubycon capacitors
    Singlemode, Dual SC,
    Fiber Port: SC, 1000Mbps,
    UTP Port: RJ-45 10/100/1000Mbps, with auto negotiation function can auto select 10/100/1000M and Full Duplex or Half Duplex.

    Package included:
    TeraDak T-S211 media converter x1,
    AC power cable x1,
    3m Dual SC - SC fiber cable x1*

    *For SFP module, please leave message.


    Dimensions: 200 x 106 x 57 (mm)

    Order lead time (build time) of 2-4 days.
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2022
  16. gaspasser

    gaspasser Flatulence Maestro

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    I’m going to necro this thing. I’m very interested in the concept of using optical Ethernet to reduce noise when streaming audio. I’m looking at the OpticalRendu Lite and the @iFi audio
    Neo Stream specifically. I would love to hear any additional comments from you about your experience with the OpticalRendu.
     
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2023
  17. earnmyturns

    earnmyturns Smartest friend

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    My experience is that rather than going with specialized, very expensive audio-specific gear, there are some relatively inexpensive computing/network upgrades that appeared to reduce electrical noise leakage into DACs. In my case, mentioned above/elsewhere:
    1. Replacing the cheap Netgear switches that my Linn Klimax DSMs were connected to with (refurbished) Cisco switches. The switch change — probably because of the better electronics & power design — made an audible difference in sound quality. The switches and the DSMs support fiber, so then I used that instead of cat 6, but the difference was very small (if any).
    2. Using Intona isolators between mini-PC NAA endpoints and my Holo DACs.

    Total cost ~$1K for two speaker and two headphone systems, small compared with whole system cost.
     
  18. Garns

    Garns Friend

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    If I'm just a normal person with my cable modem connected to a dinky little wifi router and my streamer wired to that, do you know of anything better designed to replace it with that's not a honking great big cisco switch? (Which also has no wireless?)
     
  19. Kernel Kurtz

    Kernel Kurtz Friend

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    Most consumer routers have an integral switch, those are the LAN ports. If you connect the Cisco switch to one of the LAN ports on your router, it will basically just be an extension of the Local Area Network. The router will still do the Wifi and routing.
     
  20. earnmyturns

    earnmyturns Smartest friend

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    I'm not saying it will work better for your system, just that it did make an audible difference, as confirmed by my wife who was not aware of which switch was in use, for our two Linn Klimax DSMs in two different locations. It was easy to do because I had a switch in place already, connecting Ethernet from the router to the Klimax DSM and to a fanless PC where I keep my local music. In your case, you'd do what @Kernel Kurtz says.
     

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