Nectar Sound - "The Bee" - a planar

Discussion in 'Headphones' started by Philimon, Nov 8, 2022.

  1. rhythmdevils

    rhythmdevils MOT: rhythmdevils audio

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    I'm not deriding @ChaChaRealSmooth I couldn't think more highly of Dan. I'm not talking to or about Dan at all actually. And I'm not making generalizations I'm pointing out patterns on SBAF that are not accurate.

    No one talks about the sound of electromagnetics, each electromagnetic headphone is evaluated on it's own merits but it's very common to read about the sound of "planars".

    I think you're just trying to pick a fight @Philimon I won't keep responding. ;)

    It's cool to see another ortho regardless and I hope they're awesome! Looking forward to more reviews.
     
  2. Walderstorn

    Walderstorn Friend

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    Maybe ortho characteristics deserves its own topic instead of using this one. It may lead to a good debate about their unique benefits/negatives as a whole, which can, as well, help the ones that never had opportunity to hear a pair.

    I think this would be preferable to derailing/soiling this topic.
     
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  3. rhythmdevils

    rhythmdevils MOT: rhythmdevils audio

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    I meant to just write one post but then had to correct @Philimon ’s twists trying to make my post sinister. I don’t want to disrespect Dan.

    I’d rather not split off the posts because if this is its own thread I would want to write a better first post.

    I just mention this bias from time to time to point it out we can move on. :)
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2022
  4. zerodeefex

    zerodeefex SBAF's Imelda Marcos

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    I remember when I sold my LCD-3 after hearing a golden sample LCD-2 back in the day.

    Might have to pick these up to use with the Tyrs for hip hop use.
     
  5. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    This is true. @ChaChaRealSmooth is the new @OJneg. He hates all planars and is 2000% biased against them. If he could, he'd refer to them as "play-nar" as OJ did. He's heard everything I've heard, possibly more because he's been to the latest CanJams.
     
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  6. Cellist88

    Cellist88 Friend

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    Lol @rhythmdevils Just like we generalize about BA iems to dynamic iems to electrostatic iems? NOS to OS? Its not the best implementation of the theoretical tech....so how dare we generalize any of them! I think @ChaChaRealSmooth was pretty even keeled even if he doesn't like orthos. Just follow your prefs and if other opinions don't like up with your own, then just move on. There is nothing like an audio bible.
     
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  7. ilikebananafudge_

    ilikebananafudge_ Friend

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    I think this is a good point. There does seem to be a general sentiment that electrodynamic headphones don't have a "sound"—I know this applies to me. However, I come to a different conclusion as @rhythmdevils. I think that electrodynamic transducers have a sound, just like orthos and balanced armature drivers and electrostatic transducers, etc.

    So yeah, I guess I basically agree with @Cellist88. It seems like all technologies have certain persistent characteristics that generally manifest in most implementations. Maybe the take away is that we shouldn't forget that electrodynamic headphones are not exempt from this phenomenon.
     
  8. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    Nonsense! Two phrases come to mind:

    Limp-dick
    Smoothed over​

    My wife hates stats' "unnatural separation". Generalizations of course. Still love my Koss ESP950. I'm much more weary of people who say something has no sound or is "wire-with-gain".
     
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  9. ilikebananafudge_

    ilikebananafudge_ Friend

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    I was referring to dynamic headphones (a.k.a. electrodynamic headphones), not electrostatics.
     
  10. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    Bah, grainy, no deep bass, rough, slow
     
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    Last edited: Dec 6, 2022
  11. ChaChaRealSmooth

    ChaChaRealSmooth SBAF's Mr. Bean

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    Nah, dynamics definitely have a sound: overly grainy and weird low bass

    At any rate, @purr1n is right. I seem to dislike all planars and electrostats.

    Edit: and beaten to the punch by @purr1n too.
     
  12. Lyander

    Lyander Official SBAF Equitable Empathizer

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    Or when you DO get deep bass, it's at the expense of muddying up a lot of the bottom half of the audible spectrum (e.g. Audioquest Nighthawk) unless you cut a lot of lower midrange out to compensate, e.g. the TH-900. No one technology is perfect, so it's definitely a matter of finding what your preference is.

    Who needs perfectly smooth treble, eww.
     
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  13. OJneg

    OJneg The Most Insufferable

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    A few items to differentiate:

    I suspect I have been guilty of using the term "planar sound" imprecisely in the past. When I think of planar sound, the first thing that comes to mind is the HE-500/HE-6 sound. Only because those Hifiman headphones were so common at meets ~10 years ago and I didn't think very highly of them despite everyone else seeming to go gaga. Obviously that generation of Hifiman headphones do not represent all planar headphones that ever existed before or came after them, but I don't think that it's unfair to say there were common threads in terms of sonic qualities.

    An even wider net of what is described as planar sound would include any orthodynamic or electrostatic headphones. The commonality there being that there is a tensioned diaphragm being driven by electrromagetic field of some sort. So that should include Stax electrostats, Audeze orthos, and all those that have taken queues from those technologies. Obviously that's even a wider field to make generalizations from, but again, I don't think it's unfair to say that people have noticed common threads in sonic traits that exist within that family.

    @rhythmdevils has a unique perspective as an orthodynamic enthusiast and I am sure has heard many more such headphones, particularly of the vintage variety. I am still of the opinion that the best electrodynamic headphones pwn the best planars (orthodynamic and electrostatic) handily, but maybe this Nectar Bee is a winner <$1000. I would be happy to concede if a "budget" ortho could beat out electrodynamics within the same price tier, but I remain skeptical given my past experience with budget orthos. For reference, in my mind, the best planar under $1000 is the ESP950. And I would consider the ESP950 very beatable if the ortho was up to snuff.
     
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  14. Lyander

    Lyander Official SBAF Equitable Empathizer

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    Just to offer the perspective of a guy who's never really heard anything out of what most sensible voices here would qualify as a truly high-end system, that is to say something that isn't simply costly, but has earned that cost:

    I'm well aware that the distinctions between what many enthusiasts understand to be planar magnetic headphones and electrostatic headphones are comparatively minute relative to their respective differences with electrodynamic headphones given they, after a fashion, do bear more of a resemblance to one another in terms of how their diaphragms and magnet arrays are laid out, but besides estats requiring a dedicated energizer, I feel they're different enough in presentation as to warrant persisting in referring to them as being separate "styles" of headphone.

    It's a provably wrong heuristic, but for the sake of keeping it overly simple my brain sees: dynamic, planar, and electrostatic.

    Anyway, the matter of cost is definitely something that can't be avoided here; on top of ortho-and-iso-dynamic headphones being more challenging in their current requirements, dynamic headphones below $50 e.g. the Koss Portapro just sound _good_. In contrast to that, I cannot for the life of me think of _any_ planar-magnetic headphone in that price range off the top of head, full-stop. One point that's been used to deride electrodynamic headphones is how much cheaper they are to produce, but it feels like it's missing the mark to belittle something _specifically_ for being more affordable (never mind that egregiously overpriced headphones that use this more affordable technology exist in large number).

    Even going up the ladder in terms of price, I've heard planar headphones that many opine excel e.g. the HiFiMan HE1000v2 and Susvara, the Meze Elite, and the Audeze LCD-2 Classic, and while I've been impressed in some regards, they've simply not been to my taste.

    I was floored by how texturally nuanced and quick the Susvara was, and giddy at how large the sonic images sounded without appearing to be merely "close" to me (not sure how else to express that but if you've heard them that hopefully makes sense), but the treble presentation was overly smooth relative to what I was accustomed to, and fast as the headphones sounded, they were improperly lithe and bouncy when aggression was called for. The Meze Elite was very well-voiced IMO and sounded remarkably competent with decent headstage size and good detail resolution, but it was... plain. The Elites just sounded as if they did a lot of things very competently, naught much if anything horribly wrong, but didn't stand out in any interesting way— it was the single most "whelming" headphone I've heard to date, and did nothing to earn its exospheric price tag.

    HOWEVER it should be noted that the best amps I've heard any of them out of was an iFi Pro iCAN. Not a slouch of an amplifier, but not one that I feel many here would consider particularly excellent, especially for very current-hungry headphones. There is a very good chance that, were I to hear something like a classic four-screw HE6 out of a good pair of monoblocks, I'd toss my Sennheisers in the bin and save up for that system (disclaimer, this is a joke, I got them off a good friend and they're not going anywhere).

    To the defence of planar magnetic headphones, perhaps it only appears to be the case that they have less easily-met amplification requirements simply because electrodynamic headphones have constituted the vast majority of circulating product for many decades now, and the market simply tailored itself to fit. Also, the argument that there is still a lot of POTENTIAL to ortho-and-iso-dynamics that simply hasn't been unearthed on account of electrodynamics being "easier" cannot be disproven until more time and care is given to the development thereof— that's a perfectly fair ask since I hear from trusted ears that @rhythmdevils 's mods go a long ways towards ameliorating the specific issues that I personally have with the stereotypical modern planar sound. Had I the cash to buy or fund a loaner (and nab an amp that won't crap itself powering them), I'd definitely be happy to be proven wrong.

    As things stand now though, it's easier by far to get good sound for far less in total systems cost with a Sennheiser HD600 (which can sound neat even without a tube in its upstream path, IMO), or even an Etymotic ER2XR out of an Apple dongle.

    P.S.
    Sorry but this is a bit bothersome: this one should be "cues".

    P.P.S.
    Generalisation it may be, but at least insofar as the non-Massdrop ESP-950 goes, it did under-whelm in a demo setting. Likely not a surprise given my preferences I guess. Of course I only had a brief listen before it inexplicably died on me mid-song :p
     
  15. joch

    joch Friend

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    They all have a sound. They’re all interpretive experiences. I’m not sure why folks get all tribal to what they like and have to dis what they don’t prefer. I’m generalizing about people here but it’s not too far off. I like dynamics, and planars, and estats as long as they make the music enjoyable.

    I like to think of ZMF that started out as very good planar mods, and evolving to awesome dynamics, and now back with another planar (Caldera). And to steer this back to subject, the Bee is just a different experience offering from really good estats. I just want to know if they’re enjoyable.
     
  16. JeremiahS

    JeremiahS Almost "Made"

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    I got into the hobby late... started with dynamic (HD800S) and now I am firmly in planar camp with (previously Susvara, now OG HE-6 but will probably get Susvara back when I have enough income). Each technology has their own merits but in my opinion when you compare a planar and dynamic in similar level and assuming both are properly driven, planar will always have edge in resolution, separation, black background, and speed. Planar is worth exploring if you value those aspects above other things like impact in which dynamic headphones are good at. I think the only dynamic driver that comes close to high level planar in term of speed and technicalities is the Focal Utopia but as we know they're exactly cheap...

    I think also worth noting is planar has a different amping requirement than dynamic. I notice that this forum has a larger percentage of dynamic users but what may work well with dynamic is not necessarily the best match for planar headphones.
     
  17. Philimon

    Philimon Friend

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    Nectar lists the Bee now for $500. Price drop maybe because HE6se price keeps dropping (now at $400) and Audeze’s recent LCDX driver update combined with B-stock prices ($700) is very resolving with amazing build.

    Here is some EARS measures from the website. You may triangulate using Hive measures from known rigs as reference point.
    [​IMG]
    ^ pink = Hive, blue = Bee

    Like with all other headphones the tone of Bee should be altered pretty drastically with padroll. Based on those measurements Id guess deeper pads are in order. What’s more difficult is altering dynamics, transients, “timbre”, etc.

    LCDX (2022) lacks oomph but is very clear and resolving. HE6se (padrolled) sounds more natural but washed out in comparison to LCDX. Interested in hearing how Bee compares, mostly curious if it has teh bass (according to @ChaChaRealSmooth it does). Would gladly sacrifice other qualities to a degree (for example see my recent infatuation with T50RP - Open Alpha).
     
  18. Philimon

    Philimon Friend

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    In FAQ section is now described the foam grill insert.:
    Q: Do you still use a crumpled mylar dust cover?

    A: During development I used a crumpled mylar dust cover but found it difficult to maintain repeatability and avoid deep bass resonance in musical corner cases. For this reason I use a sponge insert instead of a crumpled mylar dust cover. This insert is incredibly acoustically absorbent and acoustic measurements as well as extensive listening have shown that the sponge insert has little to no impact to the sound.
    Edit: The info was about Hive. I misread. Nevermind. Hid original / incorrect post in spoiler.
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2023
  19. Raimei Templar

    Raimei Templar Friend

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    Looking forward to seeing impressions of these. This is a very interesting headphone, choosing to go all in on the bass with a planar is a great call. I doubt I would like these stock as those upper mids look way too dipped for my taste but this certainly has the potential to be a champ with EQ so long as there is no nastiness happening. Some minor treble grain isnt too big a deal but some nasty ringing in the upper mids could be. Would be great if some brave soul on the loaner tour could try eqing up the upper mids and treble to look for issues.

    Am I correct in assuming that it is using dual 3.5mm entry cables that are wired the same as Hifiman? If so that is another positive as those cables are cheap and easy to get. Price drop makes these quite tempting.
     
  20. rhythmdevils

    rhythmdevils MOT: rhythmdevils audio

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    Interesting pictures on the website. What do they actually look like? I see pictures with and without a foam on the back of the driver, with no grill. Kind of an interesting design.

    [​IMG]
     

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