BWC (Big Woofer Club): Why Big Woofers Matter

If I ever get the chance, I promise my wholehearted surrender to the experience.

They are scary expensive, though.

 

Do the 15's have to be in speakers from PMC, only?

 

Was it these ones?
https://www.sweetwater.com/store/de...d-a-twin-15-inch-3-way-reference-monitor-pair

 

My daydreams were satisfied by the single-woofer model. But yes.

I have heard of PMC before but know little about them. They do make serious studio equipment. I wonder if @Psalmanazar can tell me if they are worth dreaming about.

Not at all. That is just where some internet wandering happened to take me. I don't remember what I was actually looking for, or if it even had anything to do with speakers! Sometimes these things just happen!

For a long time, based on net-drooling, with no opportunity to actually hear, I was dreaming of German Geithain speakers: I don't recall how big they go. I was actually seriously thinking of trying their smallest desktop model at the time.

I have heard systems put together by guys who got hold of ex-cinema speakers. The tweaters looked like small bombs; the woofers were probably pretty big --- and the sound was blissful. Possibly the closest I've had to the being-there experience. And it worked, even though the room was absurdly small for such a setup.

 

PMC tends to be hi-fi in a derogatory way with mud and presence dips and a crossover voiced for boomers with high frequency hearing loss. The bigger ones can certainly vibrate your feet and tear your head off.

 

Geithain aren't really sold in the USA. Vintage King seems to fly some in every few months now. The small Geithain RL906 are very expensive for what you get in terms of extension and volume. They're designed for broadcast trucks as the next step up from a Fostex 6301. From just the specs, you won't be able to play them loud. The big ones are the size of a refrigerator. The big ones are 16" woofers so BWC

For BWC, non install pro speakers, you can get Quested H208 or PSI/Studer A25 used for cheap if you wait. Way cheaper than ATC SCM50ASL. ATC has a premium markup while PMC is just marked up because the cabinets are so much labor.

Also for people who want BIG WOOFERS, anything using Baltic birch instead of MDF is going to SPIKE in price because of Russia invading Ukraine thus the main supply being only from Finland now.

 

That's me! That's me!

I was going to listen in London and bring back to India. Someone who had promised a debt repayment let me down so that little-but-expensive part of the trip got cancelled.

 

Basically this. The "we have ATC at home" speakers. I like the idea behind their Volt woofers, but all my real life experience with them has been kinda ho hum.

Also I've always wondered how these big ass twin 15" monitors get away with a single 1" tweeter. Studio mains go through compression tweeters like sunflower seeds with more rowdy clients. Prolly ATC and PMC has tweeter spares baked in their business model like printer toner.

P.S. I wouldn't ignore older Genelec 3-ways. They sometimes pop up for sane monies and have nice Class-AB electronics.

 

The XO point is quite high up due to the excellent treble response from the dome mid.
When simulated with musical signal power in tweeter voicecoil from 2 kHz up is truly tiny - in most cases cranked up to woofer tolerance with even big speakers they will consume 20 .. 30 W short term. The spectral density is declining quite rapidly once you go higher. The tweeter in the 15'' ATC probably never sees more than 15 W of power for extended periods.

I've gone as low as 1.2 kHz with a certain Satori tweeter and not been able to break it with music while a 12'' woofer was hanging for dear life.
* I was putting on Slayer to be fair.

 

Satori dimple domes go hella low. And they don't sound half bad!

 

(Posting so I can get the BWC badge)

At the risk of stating the obvious, super-duper DACs (like Yggdrasil) show off best with big woofers.

But there’s big big big biggum big beaaaag big… and there’s “big enough to be practical”. I found the Klipsch Heresy IVs to be a local optima for me. A 12” woofer (compared to the 15” one in the Cornwalls) displaces just enough to let Yggdrasil + Freya + Aegir (biwired) fill the room with a lot of awesome stuff. I also have to say, using a horn for the mids was a bold choice, but hey, it works!

Who knew I’d be happy at 48Hz or so in the lows…

 

I want badges!

Altec 604E "Super Duplex" - 15" woofer with coaxial horn loaded HF compression driver, 24x42x18" box. Baffle will probably get replaced soon to experiment with different ports for LF tuning.

 

Yeah, 48hz from a 6.5" woofer is not the same as 48hz from a 12" or 15".

 

100%.

It should also be noted this is the first Heresy with a rear port, which definitely helps.

 

Im thinking of trying the Lii audio f15 speaker in an open baffel, anyone have any experence with them, hear them or own them?
best,
Josh

 

Yes, I have em in Open Baffle and I would NOT recommend the driver. Relative to the more even response below 1kHz, it has a wide -7dB scoop between 1-4kHz and then rises to form a +7dB peak at 5kHz. It rolls off steeply after 11kHz but I was aware of it even before purchasing the driver and it doesn't necessarily bother me. See below thumbnails for my measurements. This is not just my driver, you could check the measurements here as well for those non-linearities between 1 and 6kHz..

Outside the frequency response, the driver has a typical paper cone timbral qualities, but it has a bit of an edgy sound. It does have some positives like good macro swings in the midrange and conjuring large images and other typical strengths high efficiency speakers. It is not very refined, but it is quite resolving of inner details and decay that not even $5K low efficiency speakers are capable of. I was hoping it would work well with 2A3, but I find it to work better with the more powerful 300B. With the 2A3 it sounds a bit anaemic. Plus, the bass impact can be almost non existent with flea watt.

It is capable of throwing a large stage but starts to fall apart when you play complicated music. I would have been fine if it was capable of doing the simple music correctly but it failed there, because the midrange timbre is marred by the non-linearity between the 1 and 6kHz region.

Chain: Wavelight/Abbas 2.3 > Elekit 8900 > Lii F15



Open Baffle - Mar 1


No Baffle (Naked Drivers) - Dec 29

 

I would not recommend any Chinese full range drivers when you can buy random 1950s/1960s console speakers from eBay, your local flea market or ham swap meet that sound way better and cost much less (<$150). If you want to try OB I think that's a better way to go.

 

These look like a great idea for low cost full range-ish open baffle, and probably get decent bass extension from room gain. Another option is to try a smaller wide bander from Fostex or Voaxtiv assisted by a larger OB woofer with a low pass filter like the PAP Duet15. With no xover effecting the smaller driver and a simple 1st order on the woofer there shouldn't be any of the time/phase issues present in more traditional multi-way speakers, so it should still retain the qualities of a single driver speaker.

Edit: The Decware Betsy OB was getting a lot of praise a few years ago for a lower cost efficient OB single driver speaker, but I've never head one.

 

Thanks for all the responses, will not waiste my time with the Li f15. Do the betsy ob have the same problem? Has anyone heard it
best,
Josh

 

anyone have any experence with GR research The Brute, Dannys new old style speaker, looks pretty good and not to expensive
best,
Josh