Verum: Doing The Right Thing

Discussion in 'How to Win Friends and Influence People' started by Ryanr1987, Jul 17, 2020.

  1. GoldenOne

    GoldenOne Friend

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    Honestly, maybe people WOULDN'T care about his personal views if he didn't involve his business in his politics so heavily.

    If he was racist in private, people would probably never know.
    But if you repeatedly involve your business in it, joke about sending ANTHRAX to reviewers who don't like your headphones, sending racist emails to customers blaming shipping delays on 'dumb blacks' etc, then you can't be surprised when people don't want to support your business.

    If you keep shooting yourself in the foot, don't blame others when it gets hard to walk.

    Not being racist REALLY shouldn't be a difficult thing to achieve. And even if you're incapable of doing that, at the very least keep it separate from your business if you don't want your business to be affected by the consequences of your actions
     
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  2. Stuff Jones

    Stuff Jones Friend

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    You missed the point entirely. The point was in the past we didn't know the opinions of people who made our headphones or anything else. They could have held all sorts of opinions we didn't like, but because there was no social media we were not made aware. So you were buying headphones (and of course other things) from people who held views you didn't like. Those views did not effect the relationship between the creator and the consumer. Was the world worse off that we couldn't get worked up about buying things from people who held opinion irrelevant to their product that we didn't like? If yes, how? If not, why not simply ignore the once private and irrelevant views expressed by headphone creators?

    Do you think by not supporting someone you disagree with you will change their mind? Is it making the world a better place? Or are we simply managing our own reputations, afraid that we too may be put in the crosshairs of social moral judgment if we don't come down hard enough?
     
  3. Stuff Jones

    Stuff Jones Friend

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    I must have missed that. I would agree with not supporting a business that insults its customers.
     
  4. Stuff Jones

    Stuff Jones Friend

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    I would like to see your reasoning and evidence for how this this guys opinions on discord or where ever material worsened the lives of any black people.

    Don't you see where punishing creators for their views can go if applied in a principled and consistent manner? Does it create a better world?

    Let's take another scenario: Closing schools during the pandemic. This is increasingly being shown to have been a disaster for our children's education and mental health. These are empirical results. This was not some great mystery at the time as many predicted it and some countries kept their schools open. Let's say a headphone maker was a vocal supporter of school closures on social media. Is it my moral imperative not to purchase their headphone? Or to take a less controversial issue, what about the War in Iraq, a gigantic mistake costing hundreds of thousands of lives. Should we feel morally compelled to not support the livelihood of someone who supported the war on social media even after it was shown to be premised on lies?

    Perhaps you will reply (like ChatGPT - https://twitter.com/aaronsibarium/status/1622425697812627457) that racist words are a uniquely bad type of...bad. If that's the case, we fundamentally disagree.
     
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  5. zerodeefex

    zerodeefex SBAF's Imelda Marcos

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    If you want to buy these things, go ahead.

    This manufacturer conducted himself in a way that wasn't in line with our community expectations. His behavior had consequences because we do believe in accountability here. I've seen no evidence of this being addressed or apologized for in any kind of mature way.

    The reality is that we're in an age where the crap you say online is more readily available than ever and can be exposed. You have two choices: take accountability for it or don't.

    Hand-waving to distract from the crappy behavior doesn't make it go away. Those of you equating it to school closures are drawing false equivalency and stirring shit. I guess the remarkably low bar we've set was too high.
     
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  6. Pancakes

    Pancakes Friend

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    Simple question:

    If you walked into a business tomorrow and the owner said "I hope your family dies", would you spend your money there?

    How about if the owner thought it but you didn't know?

    Like it or not, words actually matter.
     
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  7. Merrick

    Merrick A lidless ear

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    Words, behaviors, and actions either have meaning and impact or they don’t. If they don’t, then who gives a shit about anything? If they do, then you have to wrestle with the fact that sometimes people will use words/actions/behaviors to harm others and as responsible adults we have to account for that, and not just hand wave it away by saying “well he makes good headphones so the joy he brings to the world outweighs the bad stuff”.
     
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  8. 9suns

    9suns [insert unearned title here]

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    I understand your point but is not a valid comparison, as it would only be my decision to spend money there. We are talking about closing the store for 3 years as a consequence, not losing 1 customer.
    And if he thought it and I didn't know, it's conjecture because no one has mind reading habilities.

    Plus, if it happened in real life, you can always have some banter, laugh at his face and reply something like "keep seething cuck, how's your wife?".

    What he did is horrible but he has been cancelled 3 for years, I think it's enough time. Of course, it's just my opinion.
     
  9. jaker782

    jaker782 Friend

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    Sorry, this if off topic but I've read a lot about pandemic response so feel the need to chime in here. It has been proven through detailed modeling that in the event of a potentially deadly pandemic, the most effective way to limit the spread of the infection to those with underlying health conditions is to close schools. Sure, in hindsight it looks like it didn't work... that is the tricky thing with pandemic prevention, you have to make difficult proactive decisions that are deemed inconvenient and unnecessary in retrospect when YOU or your loved ones don't get sick and require hospitalization. I am not saying closing schools actually prevented X amount of deaths, but you know, the argument can be made that the potential to save lives is worth the possible temporary disruption to our children's education.
     
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  10. Merrick

    Merrick A lidless ear

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    It’s more akin to sponsors dropping a TV talking head when they “accidentally” espouse white replacement theory. We didn’t close his store, he still sells his stuff to people who don’t know the situation or know it and don’t care.
     
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  11. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    Absolutely yes. We've had SBAF members say really dumb shit in the past in even more hidden areas of the Internet. We said it wasn't OK and some of these people have become better for it. One has even become highly respected on SBAF for his insights. He's like one the best members ever now.

    I can unequivocally say that taking a stand against racism does make a world a better place. The efforts put into schools to stop racist behavior has allowed my kids to never experience the slanty eye gesture insults like how I did. The random crackers who admonished my parents and I when spoke in Taiwanese to other at the grocery store in San Jose, California - the last time crap like this happened was in 80s. Or the tough guy police officer who admonished a friend of mine when he received a citation: "go call your parents and speak in whatever the f**k language you do". (Evidently some cops and departments still have some work to do). That stuff doesn't happen to me anymore.

    Yes, taking a stand does make the world a better place. This isn't about disagreeing with politics. This is about disagreeing with bad behavior.

    Of course I'm managing my reputation. I don't stand with racists and people who spout N N N as if there were no tomorrow. If you do, that's your choice. All one really has is their reputation, unless you measure a person's worth by the amount of money they have. I can also unequivocally say that maintaining a good reputation (being a straight shooter, being honest, concentrating on "getting shit done") in my line of work has opened massive career opportunities.

    The irony of all this discussion is that I actually want to see Igor become a better person and succeed. I want to give him a chance (while still being careful). I know others here aren't so charitable - and they have every right not to be. If there's one thing I like about Jesus is that he felt that even the worst of the worst had the potential to be better. Sorry for being an optimist.
     
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    Last edited: Feb 17, 2023
  12. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    We are human beings and as human beings we think stupid stuff all the time. I herd cats for work. I think the cats are buttheads all the time. However if I took that next step and vocalized to the cats that they were buttheads, I will have lost by making enemies, reinforcing negative thoughts (that the cats are untrainable), and thus diminishing my ability to herd the cats.
     
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  13. Azimuth

    Azimuth FKA rtaylor76, Friend

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    The problem I have with this whole situation is that Danny does not seem to care. He seems like a very anti-cancel culture guy. However, the fact he is not even the slightest bit concerned with what went down tells me everything I need to know. It only means he would make a buck off any convicted felon.

    I am not trying to say that Igor is not reformed or convicted felons are worthless. I just feel like everyone else here in that I have not seen any reform that I have seen, other than "putting this stuff out there has hurt my business" kind of thing and no real remorse or admission of guilt whatsoever. Just deny or put off as a misunderstanding. Yet Danny turns a blind eye toward the past to turn a buck, and then using the war in the Ukraine to pull some heart strings. So really Danny is just taking advantage of the situation.

    Jesus did seek out the gamblers and sinners and tax collectors to help heal their hearts. And if you question this, go read the Beatitudes or the Sermon on the Mount. Just those two stories will tell you a lot about Jesus and how we should treat each other.
     
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  14. 9suns

    9suns [insert unearned title here]

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    The store didn't close but doesn't have access to 98% of their customers (how many headphones you think he sells on platforms like Discord or his website, not being able to use Reddit, ASR, Head-fi and SBAF?). That's extremely similar to the store being closed.
     
  15. Wilewarer

    Wilewarer Almost "Made"

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    I doubt it was a loss of 98%, for a few reasons. One being that the headphones ended up with a certain mystique of infamy because of his behavior. A lot of people heard about it, and it still casts a long shadow (we're talking about it now, after all). But then they also see that despite the really horrid behavior, these are still headphones that people would recommend very highly, love how they sound. And then they wonder how good the headphones are if all that happened and people STILL like them.

    Also, even though he's banned from basically every audio community I'm aware of... there are definitely some I'm not aware of. Certainly ones that don't operate primarily in English. I imagine at least a few of those think differently.

    At any rate, I've seen occasional chatter the whole time of people ordering stuff and getting it from him. The word is still out, to some degree.
     
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  16. Merrick

    Merrick A lidless ear

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    Avenues of distribution and marketing were closed off to him as a result of his own actions. However, it is not some cabal. I doubt Marv and Jude and Amir got together in a chat and decided to blacklist Igor together. Each community enforced their own values, and not shockingly (despite some of the posts in this thread), they decided supporting an open racist who spewed personal attacks to customers and other heinous behaviors wasn't someone they wanted wanted to associate with.

    I'd have to go back through the old posts in this thread to be sure, but IIRC we gave Igor chances to clear things up, to make things right, and he did not.
     
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  17. shotgunshane

    shotgunshane Floridian Falcon

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    No it’s not. You can talk about his headphones all you want on this site, no one will stop you. He can still make sales on his site. He’s getting plenty of free publicity with every bump of this thread. We just decided to kick a jerk off the forum.
     
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  18. willc

    willc Friend

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    Bruh. You're dumb. We would still have slavery with people like you.
     
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  19. Pancakes

    Pancakes Friend

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    When SBAF, ASR, HF, Discord, Reddit ALL cancel you,there's a serious problem. It's like getting canceled by CNN, Fox News, ESPN, Food Network, etc.

    When multiple communities with their own (often at war with each other) dogmas, their own plethora of individuals (and all their accompanying opinions) and, of their own accord deem you reprehensible, it means you're a piece of shit.

    Danny either doesn't know the extent and thinks there was a one time transgression or, he doesn't WANT to know because there's money in it for him.
     
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  20. zerodeefex

    zerodeefex SBAF's Imelda Marcos

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    Let’s call a spade a spade. It’s not “canceling” anyone. It’s asking for accountability.
     
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