New Schiit Vali 2 Discussion Thread

You should try the HD800 mods. Makes much more of difference than any amp or tube rolling will ever do (in terms of fatigue, some amps can sound seriously rolled-off, but that still doesn't make the stock HD800 unfatiguing to me).
I'm using my modded HD800 with Rag and have no issues with brightness. Fully modded the tonal balance is comparable to HD600 without midbass hump and 3-4kHz bump.

 

For sure--I'll probably place an order for a SD Resonator in the near future.

 

Can anyone do me a favor and recommend a replacement for the stock tube? Using HD650´s the sound is a little on the lean side, more resolution if possible. Oh and I if you say some numbers with a name I won't get it at all. I actually need a direct link, preferably EU site. hah.

Wish someone would make a guide on "understanding tubes"...

 

I got through it. Dunno why I did it to myself. Had me writhing when he started comparing its 60v to the darkvoice's 600v.

So much I want to address, but I don't wanna be mad. I don't like being angry.

 

No lie, I'd legitimately enjoy that.

While I'm here, I'm looking to roll a little more. I have the stock Canada 6BZ7 and a Philips PCC88. The Philips is a significant step up, but I'm not sure it's the best match for my DT990's. It definitely made things much smoother and clearer, but I feel like the stock tube is actually less fatiguing and fuller with these cans. Just wish it had a bit more balance to its darkness. If the PCC88 winds up being the best I can do for the price, then I'll stick with that, as it does sound quite good, but I am curious about the synergy with other tubes in that range. I feel like the PCC88 probably pairs a lot better with warmer cans.

I don't want to spend more on tubes than the amp itself, so I'm looking at the cheaper NOS and current production ones. I'm gonna pick up the EH 6922 and the JJ 6922 for starters. Specifically, I could use something with a little more warmth and bottom end. Don't think I need more sparkle than the PCC88. The Matsushita has me curious. The JAN Phillips, too. I'd rather not buy a bunch of cheap tubes though, lol. At that point I might as well get one of those really nice Amparex's, Seimens, or Telefunken's... ...but at that point I also coulda just bought another amp, yanno?

 

I liked the Russian 6H23P's from thetubestore.com. I owned the premium's with the lyr 2 and the standard with the vali 2. I think $20 for the standard is a very reasonable price for a tight neutral tube that retains the soft tube feel.

 

Hmmm... ...I was looking at one of those, but the price gap between the standard and premium threw me off. I thought to myself that the premium was probably overpriced compared to more known solid tubes in that price range... ...and that the cheaper one might not be all that good being that it's just that much cheaper than the risky premium.

The psychology of the tube game (and really personal audio in general) really messes with my head sometimes. You can waste money trying to save it just as easily as you can spend a lot of money and have nothing to show for it. If I can find a reason to doubt something, I will.

However, earlier in this thread I believe someone described that tube being as warm and bassy. Now, you're telling me it's tight and neutral but has that tubey-ness. Definitely makes me wonder if maybe its a good match for these bright-ass cans. Maybe I'll grab the Russian 6H23P as a NOS option and only get one current production tube instead.

 

From my limited experience - quality does not dictate price, supply sets the price. Tube comparisons are also relative. The Russian that I had was more neutral than the NOS JAN Philips 6992, didn't listen to stock tube more than an hour or so. The Philips was softer and smoother, the Russia had more detail and great "holographic" sound. Small differences between them.

I found myself over thinking tubes and pairing with my Lyr 2, and I ended up spending about as much on tubes as I did the amp. Should have put that same money into a better Dac, better headphones or a better amp. Would have made a more impactful difference. Others love tube collecting and constantly rolling and trying to hear the difference. I prefer listening to music.

 

Thank you for the comparisons. That's helpful in whittling things down a bit. And yeah, that's pretty much my mindset with it. I understand that price doesn't always translate to quality. I'm already really happy with the Vali 2 as is. Most of the sound is in the implementation and the topology, anyway. The tube rolling factor is just an afterthought for me. I like to tweak things, so it's a fun little diversion on top of the main attraction, which is how much closer it brings me to the music.

Right now, I just wanna do some rolling for the sake of it. I'm not gonna buy many so I wanna nab some good ones for cheap, just to have a way to slightly change the flavor of the day. Some days, I favor the stock tube. Other days, it's gotta be the Phillips.

That being said, I don't think there are any "ideal" tubes for any particular amp. I'm not seeking perfection. I'm thinking outside of a few universal indicators of quality, there's not much "better" in tube rolling. Mostly, there is only "different." I can understand why people get nutty with it. I'm trying to keep my wits about me. My main focus with my setup right now is a more scalable, more tonally desirable, and more resolving pair of cans.

And once I'm at that point, I'll be looking at an amp upgrade... ...and then, maybe a new DAC. Maybe...

If I had the cash for the Lyr 2, or even just the Valhalla 2 I wouldn't even be thinking about the tubes, haha.

 

I think you will find that tubes don't make as much as a difference with the Vali 2 as some other amps. Or rather given the value nature of the amp, I think you won't get the same value by getting expensive tubes. I found very little difference between my JAN Phillips tube and an Amperex 7308. Both gave the amp a nice touch of warmth and smoothness without loss of detail, but the difference in quality wasn't near the price gap. On my Valhalla 2, however, the differences between tubes are more readily heard. Use a tube to slightly adjust the flavor of the amp, not the "quality."

If you are going to spend near $100 on different tubes, you might as well get a better amp.

 

You mentioned earlier that you were running the Vali 2 in low gain. Low gain is what, 1.25X? I would think (anyone correct me on this?)that that's not a huge influence on the overall sound. You might get more noticeable results in high gain. The Vali 2 certainly sounds more tube-like on high gain to me.

 

@MikeDIf I did, I meant high-gain. Are you sure that was me? It's powering 250 ohm drivers in my case, so I've only ever run it on high gain. I find it even sounds better in high gain with 32-ohm cans, even though the output impedance in high-gain is 5.8 ohms. So yes, what you're saying does make sense to me, especially when you consider that the gain stage is where the tube comes into play... ...or at least I think that's how it works. I don't fully understand what does what in the Vali 2, but I think I do, heh.

@fraggler I would assume as much. Hence why I'm hoping to score 2-3 different budget ones, just to have those slight tweaks. When I think about tube quality (at least with regards to this amp,) I'm thinking about the easily identifiable, testable things, such as excessive microphonics, unacceptably high noise floor, non-viable triode balance, poor tonality... ...i.e. serious functionality/performance issues.

If it doesn't have any of those problems, it's a good tube to me. Beyond that, I agree that the idea is to simply alter the sound slightly more to your liking. Basically, the only justification I can see for dumping expensive tubes into an amp is if either your amp costs an order of magnitude more than the tubes (kinda like the rule with cables - you just don't hook-up a $500 setup with $1000 cables, yanno?) or THAT super expensive tube and only that tube has exactly the flavor you know you're after, with your exact setup - sorta like what jexby goes on to describe.

What you mentioned about the Valhalla is something I've considered as well. As I understand it, the tube's influence over the Vali 2's sound is limited by being only in the preamp stage, with solid-state transistors doing most of the heavy lifting. I know it must make some difference, but I can see how "better" tubes may not reach their full potential in the Vali 2 because of how it's laid out. It's not designed to sound tubey. It just has some of the benefits that tube amps provide with (arguably) fewer of the pitfalls that some dislike about tube amps.

Like I said earlier, I'm not trying to go tube-crazy with what is essentially a serious toy. That's why I'm asking about cheap tubes with certain attributes. I don't wanna wind up with 1 excellent tube that doesn't present proportional returns any more than I do 5-6 dirt-cheap tubes that never see any action. I'd rather have 2-3 good-cheap ones that I can rotate every now and again. I think the Vali 2 has amazing sound quality for the money, even with the stock tube. But still, the idea of being able to cheaply and easily alter the dynamics, soundstage, tonality, and such does appeal to me.

Some days, I get neurotic about certain aspects of the sound and it kinda kills the experience for me. Some days, I wake up and something just doesn't sound quite right anymore. I just kinda stagnate. Probably something I should work on, but for now, I find that changing tubes seems to be pretty effective. I think that having it sound the same all of the time messes with my head after a while.

I'm limiting myself to $60 (possibly even less, depending on... ...things.) I think that's a reasonable compromise. I do eventually want better quality than I'm getting... ...but I'm looking at better cans for that, not new tubes. However, that's a bit of a ways off. I have to save up. I want something to toy around with in the meantime


@jexby See, that's kind of interesting. My upgrade path right now is looking like Headphones > Amp > DAC. I just wouldn't think to pair the Vali 2 with a $1200 DAC lol. I take this to mean that it scales well with the right tubes and the right chain.

I guess I can see the merits of doing that over buying the Gungnir Multibit/Mjolnir pair together. If what you say is true, then the Gungnir Multibit/Vali2 (with a top-shelf tube) would hold supreme value over the former. Interesting. Probably not going that way, as I'd rather get like, some HD6x0's (at least,) upgrade from the Vali 2 and then start looking at classier DAC's. If figure I'll hear bigger differences from jump to jump that way. What you're describing just sounds very... ...situational.

Might be something for me to keep in mind whenever I have a comparable DAC though... ...assuming I keep the Vali 2 up to that point.

Thank you for the input guys. It's good to have confirmation of and clarification on some things I've been mulling over.

 

I hate to say this, but written 2,000,000 words on $60 worth of tubes. It's time to buy a couple and you either like it or you dont. I like the careful approach, but again, changes will be minor.

 

Haha, you're probably right.

 

Yeah, sorry - that was totally someone else who was listening on low gain. Ugh, this is what happens when you start posting stuff in the middle of flu fever...

 

Sall good MikeD. You just had me legitimately confused lol. I was thinking "I said that?"

Well, I ended up getting what I think is a pretty good deal on 3 second-hand tubes... ...and unless a really special tube falls into my lap, I'm done with it. While I hear more differences than I expected, I'm noticing a clear line in how much of a difference tubes can make in this amp. Maybe with much higher quality tubes, there's more to be had. But at that point, I'd rather just have a Val2 or Lyr 2.

And besides, the Vali 2 sounds great, even with the stock tube!

I don't know what I'm talking about, so I'll just go right ahead and just ramble unhelpfully about cheap tubes. My chain is 4490 Modi 2 U > Vali 2 > Beyer DT990 Pro

My final haul:
Canadian 6BZ7
Matsushita 6922
Phillips PCC88 (Upscale Audio, platinum grade)
Valvo E288CC (Siemens-made/ Valvo-branded; red markings, gold pin, o-getter)
Siemens E288CC (same innards/pins, markings worn away - all I can make out is "Si" in the white Siemens typeface just above the top plate)

Canadian 6BZ7

Spoiler

Stock tube. Completely dull and unassuming sound. Flat. Conjested. Non-fatiguing. Almost neutral to a fault. Though competent, it's not analytical enough to be interesting and not euphonic enough to be engaging. When this was all I had, I was okay with it. It is utterly average and unoffensive in every single way.

And in that regard, it was a good choice on Schiit's part. You can get right to enjoying the Vali 2 without feeling like you have to roll the tube to make it worthwhile. This tube makes rolling completely optional.

Matsushita 6922

Spoiler

I quite like this tube. I think it's a significant improvement. My only wish is for more air, though a surprising amount of ambient details come through. This is more of a classically tubey tube. It's sweet and chunky. Mid-bass has a satisfying "slap" to it. Soundstage is sort of wide, but starkly compartmentalized - either it's right up in your head or all the way out. Instruments covering a wider range of frequencies get smeared across the two points.

All in all a pretty smooth and refined tube, though it isn't the most resolving and is prone to congestion with some recordings. Seems to pair well with bright headphones - it gives vocals more substance and elicits a sense of corporeality on quieter passages without sacrificing too much detail in the upper register. Dynamic range is average. It does sound compressed at times.

I can see how it might be too smooth/laid back for some. It does have an understated quality to it.

Phillips PCC88

Spoiler

This is my workhorse. It has that wide, 3D, filled-out soundstage. It's really something. Everything sounds like it is in its own pocket. Its strongest attribute is decidedly its sparkley, crystalline treble and abundance of air - it has well-extended highs without being overly bright. Though occasionally unforgiving, it makes good mixes really shimmer. Stringed instruments and cymbals are saturated with pleasant overtones. Anything with very fast treble attack jumps out at me. The downside is that vocals get a little pushed back.

Nice, balanced mids fill-out all but the most scooped-out tracks. Textured, responsive bass, though the mid-bass is just slightly recessed. Very glassy, nuanced transients. By far the most immediately engaging tube I have. It's so detailed that it almost sounds realer than real, without being unnatural. No old-school tubeyness here. It gives the Vali 2 a very modern sound. It's like a slightly leaner, more spacious and more natural sounding Magni 2 Uber. Imagine a Magni 2 Uber with far less glare and more refinement. It's just clean and crisp.

E288CC's

Spoiler

These don't get tossed around too much. Apparently they are supposed to be good alternatives to 7308's and CCa's. This datasheet shows a rather high heating current compared to other options, but nothing the Vali 2 can't accommodate. Nick over at Schiit seems to agree with me.

The Siemens one has fog on the glass between the two plates. It works, but it sounds implacably off, veiled and shouty. I think it has seen better days. Barely worth mentioning.

The one with red lettering is a fantastic tube. I save it for special occasions.

While the Phillips jumps right in front of you and immediately dazzles, the Valvo is more mature than that. It is only after a half hour that you start to realize how great it truly is. You easily hear the Phillips. With this tube, you simply hear music.

Technicality-wise, it is similar to the Phillips in many ways, only with more warmth and a few other minute, but significant differences. Same, far-reaching treble extension, but without the added emphasis. It has a healthier amount of mid-bass, which isn't as quick. Not fat, just filled-out. The soundstage is just as enormous, but there's more clarity in the foreground. Even without the treble emphasis, it manages to be less veiled. Vocals come through crystal clear, never sibilant. Treble sounds generally sweeter and more organic, with a bit of a sheen to it. Not quite as much air, but for that, you get a wholesome, more satisfying overall presentation. It is, for lack of a better word, enveloping.

Compared to the Phillips, this has a more cohesive and more resolving profile. You could say that they're equally revealing in slightly different ways. The E288CC is more transparent and somehow more realistic. The Phillips has plenty of musicality too, but it sounds a little analytical standing next to this E288CC. Tonality is not vastly different (and both are pretty great,) but the latter has just enough "bloom" to round things out without sacrificing too much dynamic range or imaging. Because of that, it is just a little more forgiving.

I have a feeling that if these weren't so hard to come by, they would be more popular. It's a really classy tube! I really can't fault it.

 

Valvo/Phillips are definitely my preferred sound in tubes from the west.

 

I can see myself preferring them in the future, too. Never woulda thought the first tube I bought would be a total winner. Both of them have mojo. Good juju.

You know how I can tell they're a good fit? I'm no longer tempted by other mythical tubes once I drop em in. As soon as that Matsushita goes in, I suddenly feel like scrolling through page after page of tube-rolling threads and frantically browsing ebay... ...it's only when I drop-in the Phillips or the Valvo that I remember what's truly important in life.