All of HE-5XX's bullshit (that I noticed)

My answer to @Rthomas was in respect to CSDs running with specific parameters. The spectrograms that you are using could to be different. I am not familiar with them.

I have the HE-500 data too, however it's in an older format, so I can only process apples-apples results in ARTA. Here are three below. One of them is actually the HE-500. Another is the HD600. I added a newer HFM, the HE400S for reference. Guess which is which.

A


B


C

 

I get my information from years of data I've collected going back to 2011.

Of the HFMs, the OG HE-5 and HE-6 were the best HFMs in regards to settling behavior - having ripples at selective frequencies and at much lower levels. In the plots below, I've extended the timescale to 9ms, a change from graphs in the prior post which went to 4ms-5ms. Note that these don't have the fine resolution of my own processed CSDs, so some of those ripples will be more faint.

OG HE-6 Modded. From 5kHz-10kHz, only hints, very faint, above 9kHz, below 8k and 7k demarcations.


OG HE-5 (Code-X mod). Even better than above, except for more intense ringing at 4.5kHz.
There was a rumor that the diaphragms were tweaked, put them in the oven. Who knows.


Now, this is a good one. Here is the HE-5 reissue. Notice how it's taken a step back from the OG HE-5.


I do not think it's only tension that is the cause of the ripples / settling issues. Looking at the trends, I think smaller and weaker magnets are a major contributor because this is I started noticing this.

Here is Grado RS-2 with TTVJ pads as a sanity check. There is some stuff between 2-3kHz, which is expected.
Totally clean of ripples / underdamping from 5kHz up

 

I found some exceptions here!

Now this one can almost be mistaken for a traditional dynamic. The reasons are no continuous lines and not much past 5kHz. Word is that MrSpeakers diaphragms were not tensioned or lightly tensioned.



Also Paradox, Fostex T50RP mod. Probably the best I've been in terms of no crap. I know the insides were stuffed full of damping material, so this could be part of it. I believe the T50RP diaphragm is not tensioned. I always forget about this one - knew these were super clean in the CSDs since the Changstar days.

 

Your point could be misunderstood, so I'll elaborate. Looking back at all these CSDs I just posted, headphones are a nightmare in respect to CSDs. Any kind of tweaking or modding is a band-aid and ultimately futile when compared to a decent soft dome tweeter.

From Zaphaudio.com, the CSDs below are from a few tweeters I've used in my projects. The worst of these murders any headphone in regards for FR smoothness and lack of ringing. Heck, even the cheap $3 tweeter on the JBL LSR308 mounted on that computer-modeled waveguide murders the upper mids and highs on any headphone.

If one is truly concerned and bothered about ringing, settling, damping, tensioning, smearing - a pair of B-stock LSR308s (Yamahas, Mackies, KRKs, etc.) will cost the same as one of these bargain planars and provide for a much more immersive experience and x100 better imaging because while soundstage is faked, headstage is bullshit.

ScanSpeak 9500


Hiquphon OW1


Dayton_RS28A4

 

@purr1n I always forget why my only planars are paradox/slant, Code-X and some vintage Yamahas modded by Don until I go back to the effin ringing.

I should send you my Code-X for measurements on the new rig. I think it was Luis' golden sample. It's too bad he moved before he could finish my HE-6, I hope he is well.

 

Welp! That part about the Code-X looking great and what I said about the ARTA plots being lower resolution? I found current Code-X data and ran them (apples to apples). It's the same deal :-(



For those who are curious about the other kind of planar, STAX 2170


---

All this leads to the point which I eventually wanted to get to:

Please, let's not go measurement fascist disguised as audio
scientist.

Most of these measurements are really of academic interest. Discussion behind them, their audibility, and how they translate to what we hear, is much more crucial. Showing a graph with something that looks bad, and then proclaiming that it is bad in a dogmatic way, using it as a litmus test, is utter lunacy - it's religion. We should never do measurements for the sake of measurements.*

And at the end of the day, if we really want to be CSD Facist (I'm not forcing anyone not to), don't bother with headphones, which is why I elaborated on @Psalmanazar's point.

*This technique does seem to get a lot of hits and attract a lot of followers. People love dogmatic systems that give them purpose. Not much different from religious extremists. This statement is a twist from an old boss earlier in my tech career: let's not do technology for the sake of technology - it leads to a myopic vision that misses the mark.

 

Nice. I'll keep using the RAAL and speakers mostly hah.

 

The RAAL's got some of that behavior too. It exhibits slightly differently because it's a long strip. Will post if anyone is curious.

Here's HE-500 apples-apples to the rest of the above. I managed to massage the older data. Some of this was able to be seen on the earlier produced ARTA graph.

 

I can confirm this. Looks like a fail from a design POV in respect to smaller heads. As I mentioned earlier, it didn't even cross my mind because I have a large head (two clicks from max extension with HD800) and the problem is usually the other way around.

I was thinking about giving these to my son, but found out that they cannot be adjusted to fit correctly. In the photo below, the cups are moved up as much as possible before interfering with the headband. Still the cups hang a click or two too low for his comfort. Perhaps in a few more years.

 

@takato14:

I do not wish to be your enemy nor should you see me as the enemy. This is a not matter of being right or wrong. I'm not trying to prove that all the other planars are just as bad as the HE5XX or minimize the underdamped CSD behavior of the HE5XX. It's there. I posted the HE5XX CSDs for everyone to see on October 29, well within time for anyone to cancel their Drop order if they felt uneasy about them.

The more interesting discussion is how bad does this behavior need to be before it becomes a problem, noting that different people will have different sensitivities or different systems that could exacerbate or mitigate certain issues found in these measurements. As several folks have already remarked, they aren't the most resolving and won't take advantage of better gear as much as HD6XX. In my time with them so far, the HE5XX do scale somewhat. They do sound better from my EC amp than the MOTU headouts or THX789 headouts, but not a whole lot.

In respect to the cost-cutting and lack of detail, I would point out that this runs true across HFM's entire product line all the way up to their TOTL headphones. However, in my experience, the lower end HFMs tend to be more robust than the higher end stuff. My HE1000 driver died after a few days and required a replacement. To HFM's credit, this was immediately taken care of. A member here suffered three HEX failures, and upon his third, was given the option to upgrade to the v2 version or whatever for a small sum - which in my opinion is a bit shady. So I think it seems a bit strange that you would take apart the HE5XX, issue a huge NOT RECOMMENDED announcement per Amir styles, and yet still recommend the HE4XX, which likely suffers from the same build quality issues, has more uneven frequency response, and comes with the shittier true OG headband and gimbal system.

The way I see it is if one is bothered by Yugo'esque quality, by all means avoid all HFM products, not just the HE5XX, and especially avoid the higher end stuff with the thinner diaphragms that break (no different from Audeze). To be fair, I've heard that HFM has better gotten their shit together, and I haven't heard of any recent cases of HEX, Ananda, Susvara dying. I know for a fact that HFM has upped their game in terms of customer service, especially from those days where it was an Asian granma tersely asking: "what you want?" over the phone.

Lastly, the "smearing" effect, which I am postulating is reflected by the underdamped CSD behavior, is audible. No one is disputing this. The only question is how bad is it. My own assessment is that it's fine for the target audience. I don't see people with DSHA 3Fs, MH150s, or Starletts buying the HE5XX if you get what I mean. For folks with THX789s, I think it's a good match, great synergy because of the THX789's focus and articulation. While the smearing is undesirable, the frequency response, timbre, and transient response are is at least decent if not quite good - better than any other HFM below $500. And this out-of-the box without mods. It's give and take. Anything, regardless of price range is a matter of compromises.

Although I am a dynamic driver guy, even I have to admit that the HE5XX reproduces bass way better than the HD650/HD600, especially when I'm in the mood for something like Aphex Twin or FSOL. But really at the end of the day with electronic music, screw any of this. I'm on the Hive Nectar stats (or OG modded HE-5). The OG HE-500 was nice in many ways, but really, it wasn't that good.

FWIW, I more than anyone else has more reason to want to put a knife in the back of HFM, considering "spygate" at Changstar where an HFM representative hacked into a senior member account to spy in our private conversations. (Confirmed via IP logs). LOL, very unfortunately stereotypical China considering what's happening today. However, it's not worth it for me to hold on to this. I just brush it off my shoulder. Life's too short.

 

It's not the processing. While the decay envelope is not quite the equivalent as CSD decay, think of it like this. It happens. None of this stuff acts in a linear or predictable way. It may do one thing for at one frequency and something all together different at another.

 

Looks like I have similar finish issues with nicks on the the rim of the circular piece. The button on the other side with the Drop isn't flush on the other side (not pictured - too lazy to post). Note the angle of the adjustment is just slightly rotated counter clockwise in respect to vertical to the headband. There is a few degrees of play in the mechanism, but this side is just off from the the other side where it's perfectly vertical. None of this has presented an issue with fitment for me.

 

Regardless of motives, information is information. While I may not agree with the @takato14's tone, the information he's presented is factually correct. The issues with fit and finish may perhaps not be important to you, or you may not suffer from them, but they could very well be important to others. The lack of ultimate bass extension and irregularities with decay were doubly confirmed. The fitment issues for people with smaller heads could potentially be a huge oversight. I let my son use the headphones I have around the house, and to my chagrin, these are the only headphones that do not fit him.

I agree with you that the HE5XX review at Headfonia is fantastic. However, they don't mention any of the downsides of the HE5XX other than the highs "bordering on brittle". Wouldn't you at least want to know more about any negative aspects before your purchase? It's not like anyone is forcing a decision upon you. The information is presented and you can decide for yourself whether they are relevant or applicable.

Finally, if you want professionalism, Headfonia, StereoNET Australia, and Stereophile are much better bets than Internet forums, especially this one. I don't know if you noticed a few things:

 

HiFiMan's OG headphones, HE-5 (wood cups), HE-6 (terribly inefficient and needed speaker power amps), and HE-500 (really not that great, but nostalgia you know), are considered to be their best headphones by many holdouts. (Let's not mention the years of collective knowledge put into the mods required to make these sound great).

HiFiMan has since moved on to make more efficient and lighter headphones using thinner membranes. These newer headphones sound different from the OG HiFiMans of yore. Some people don't like change and suffer from a case of the memberberries. The use of the HE-5XX moniker, invoking the sacred holy name of HE-500 (again, overrated when viewed nostalgically) only pissed these folks off further. How dare Drop sully the name of the HE-500!



The Internet is a strange place. Audiophiles are even stranger.