Audio Science Review Review

Discussion in 'Audio Science' started by purr1n, Aug 30, 2020.

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  1. penguins

    penguins Friend, formerly known as fp627

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    Womp womp.

    On a more serious note - I would also like to pose the same question that I've brought up before and that others have sort of asked or explained - Amir and ASR crew - please explain why SINAD (and 1 or 2 other measurements) is the key/only definitive measure of what and how we hear.
    My own opinion: It's important for sure (I look at measurements too) but based on everything I know about hearing and sound, it should be FAR from the only thing we can perceive about sound. Other sites do measurements, but I think they more clearly mimic what Purrin and others have said - used in cases of gross error to quickly show gross error OR to give a clue about how some sound aspects of the equipment rather than something along the lines of say a -100dB device is 10x better than a -90dB device.
    [​IMG]

    Even if ASR tries to use this as a pass/fail litmus test, I don't think it's comprehensive enough for even that. Purrin's blood test results thing was a good parallel IMO - there should be normal "ranges" across a lot of variables and factors. Many of which we probably don't know or understand yet. Many of which will interact with each other. And the same number for one thing may be good in some cases but bad in others. Etc.
    On the flip side, some of the "exposed" stuff Amir did like showing sloppy soldering on a Yggdrasil sample is legitimate (and should/can be rightfully called out by anyone who sees such a thing) but if Schiit (or whatever mfg) fixed the issue, maybe tone it down a bit and issue a "mission accomplished / issue fixed" type thing.
     
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2020
  2. JellyRhino

    JellyRhino Facebook Friend

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    ASR, AKA Audio Shill Review, is committed to objective reviews. It's a well known fact. :bow:
     
  3. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    Thanks for clearing things out.

    From what I can tell at this point, it doesn't seem like Aoshida owns Topping and SMSL either. It seems more like a distributor that is mis-representing itself, and may have some connections with ASR (given the blog there) which would give the appearance of a conflict of interest from an unbiased reviewer stand point.
     
  4. Bina

    Bina MOT - Shanling

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    I will say that some Chinese companies are relying completely on few distributors when it comes to international market, so when looked from outside, it might look like it all falls under one name.
     
  5. Psalmanazar

    Psalmanazar Most improved member; A+

    Pyrate Slaytanic Cliff Clavin
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    Yeah I realized he was a Harman dealer years ago but suspected he had a hookup to Topping somewhere.

    It's hilarious these guys pretend to be the shah and satraps of clean sound yet don't recommend Lynx (it is only "recommended" yet not recommended) and hate on ATC and Yamaha. That they didn't realize what comes close to clean after hundreds of thousands of dollars of gear purchases shows how deaf they truly are.
     
  6. Baten

    Baten Friend

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    Given that "smsl-topping"/aoshida is really just an international chinese audio outlet/distributor, it seems more likely to me that they are copy-pasta'ing relevant ASR "reviews" into those blogs, probably taking only the positive ones and not the scathing ones. Doesn't really mean anything right? I'm not seeing the conspiracy theory here, myself. They're just shamelessly using cherry-picked/useless ASR content for self-promotion is what it is.
     
  7. Raimei Templar

    Raimei Templar Friend

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    To be clear even though I think there is a bias towards Topping/SMSL on ASR, I wouldnt say there is clear evidence that their is some sort of payoff or grand plot or anything of that sort. It could be very well be that he simply knows the people running some of these companies (he certainly does as several of them are ASR members) and is inclined towards being gentler on them as a result. That is still poor behavior from someone who is trying to be as objective as possible, but I understand that it can be difficult to shit on something your friend made. It would probably be best for him to refrain from offering subjective commentary on anything made by a company he has a relationship with.

    i did find it interesting about Aoshida though as I wonder if that is where he is getting his review samples. He usually says it was provided by the company in question but could mean through the distributor. If so he really should be disclosing that they have that sort of relationship, especially given than Aoshida is using his reviews as ads.

    There really is a fine line reviewers who arent so wealthy as to be able to afford to buy all this gear on their own have to walk. You cant be too negative on the stuff companies send you or they will cut you off, and you have to actually critique the product if its flawed or your audience will figure out your just a shill pushing affiliate links. Or alternatively have enough charisma that people figure out you are pushing affiliate links but people find your shtick endearing or entertaining enough to keep coming back(like Sir Z Reviews :)) but not everyone has that level of charisma.

    its a tough gig being a reviewer these days and there arent many good ones. I remember when Metal571 got blacklisted by Beyerdynamic for his rather scathing Amiron Home review. Companies dont like you taking a crap on their stuff!

    Its why I appreciate greatly what SBAF offers, as people arent afraid to be vicious if they really hate something and usually do a good job explaining why they dislike it.

    Would be interesting to see how many ASR scathing reviews involved products that were actually sent to him by the company or a distributor like Aoshida. All of the ones I remember like the pre-OP amp madness Schiit stuff were all sent in by readers. Could be he is consciously or unconsciously being easier on review samples.
     
  8. Walderstorn

    Walderstorn Friend

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    That would be the case. They are a multi-brand distributor, they want to sell their products and they know that a specific site usually gives good reviews about certain brands, so they cherry pick those and put them up front for marketing purposes, nothing weird about it.

    Edit - one thing that kept being in the back of my head though, why would a distributor use the name of 2 of it's products as an address? That is pretty weird.

    If i am an Bequiet and Corsair distributor i wouldn't go www.bequietcorsair.net, this is still weird and fishy or i am missing something.
     
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2020
  9. YMO

    YMO Chief Fun Officer

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    That Metal571 name is familiar, then I remember why.
     
  10. Thad E Ginathom

    Thad E Ginathom Friend

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    If you are strictly an objectivist... truly, madly, deeply, dedicated evangelising objectivist, you don't even know what you are testing or listening to until afterwards. Does Amir blind test? If not, he is not worthy to even pick up an objectivist flag, let alone wave it. Objectivist lesson one: remove all biases, conscious and unconscious. Otherwise, objective bullshit.
     
  11. murphythecat

    murphythecat GRU-powered uniformed trumpkin

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    wow
    that is game over right there. It was obvious from the start that he was paid by those chinese companies, but now this is just the proof of it all.
    Can I repost this exact post on other forum such as Stevehoffman, pinkfishaudio, audiogon ect? awereness of ASR fraud needs to be told to as many as possible.
     
  12. zonto

    zonto Friend

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    @murphythecat, see subsequent posts that shed further light and may make things less alarming.
     
  13. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    The relationship remains unclear.

    Is it Amir and the companies? Some of the companies? The distributors? All of the above?

    There is one thing that is clear. His reviews are so partial to some specific brands, that distributors can take advantage of them to sell their products.

    Other than that, the relationship is fairly murky.

    That said, creating a blog with content, is a bit different than linking a review. A blog suggests a much closer relationship with the brands and/or the distributor.

    But yes, one could also assume that award winning Microsoft corporate vice-president Amir is innocent and was taken advantage off by this distributor who unscrupulously took advantage of his very partial reviews to sell their shit w/o his knowledge.
     
  14. murphythecat

    murphythecat GRU-powered uniformed trumpkin

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    really? cause the ties between amir and the companies, combined with the obvious bias and head turning towards those same products seem to paint a very clear picture.

    if he wasnt biased toward the smsl-topping plethora of chinese products, he would be above suspiscion, but the fact that those products measurements are constantly butched seem alarming to me

    I dunno. I'm convinced, for those who arent, they'd need email proof between Amir and the companies lol
     
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2020
  15. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    Yup. Whatever the nature of that relationship, it does kind of stink isn't it.
     
  16. BenjaminBore

    BenjaminBore Friend

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    We have no evidence either way, it’s all circumstantial. Plenty of manufacturers do the same. However I haven’t seen any that present them from only one source by way of a self hosted blog.

    Snapshots should be taken, and when the time is right he should be questioned about this publicly. But without something more to go on any direct accusation can easily backfire.
     
  17. Thad E Ginathom

    Thad E Ginathom Friend

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    I know little about Amir, and that makes me happy... but curiosity bites: I seem to remember that some of the hydrogen guys (I forget names) made a big thing of him being a retailer. Is he still in the business, or making money from any sort of system building or consultancy role?

    Just asking.
     
  18. Biodegraded

    Biodegraded Friend

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    Amp A is the Meier Audio Corda Jazz, amp B is the Garage1217 Project Polaris.

    Summarizing: the objection is that A was crapped on while B was given a pass because "it was tuned to aim for a specific sound" by an ASR regular, whereas other low SNR/low SINAD amps would be crapped on no matter what - this being an example of the first part of bullet 2 in the OP, "Changing the goal posts depending on whether the manufacturer is favored or not favored". Reading the Jazz review and followup posts, it seems that this is also an example of the second part of that same bullet point: "using voltage levels not in proper context of the gear being used" (earlier illustrated by Case 3, the Schiit Jotunheim).

    Much of Amir's objection to the Jazz seems to come from the low distortion-vs-voltage/power result he measured and claimed to hear ("severe distortion" with the pot "much past" 12 o'clock). This is addressed by the amp's designer in the first of his two contributions to the discussion: in this amp, volume is set by changing feedback so noise is highest at maximum volume and lower at low volumes; and the sensitivity of the electronic volume control switching means that distortion will be a factor with the ASR test input voltage of 2V after about 2 o'clock on the dial. Meier notes that at 300 ohms and 102 dB/V, the HD800 could be played by the amp without distortion up to 112 dB (raising the question of how long the tester was listening when he heard the distortion!).

    So it appears that the results of some of the tests (maximum volume; and a standard 2V input) of this amp should not be compared apples-to-apples with the results from other amps because of this one's unconventional design. This was not understood by the tester going in, and was not acknowledged nor the results revised upon explanation from the designer.

    I like the objection that 'stuff like "sound stage image representation, depth extension and instruments layering" has no place on ASR'. So if the Science is bad or inconsistently applied and we remove large parts of the Audio, that leaves, er...?
     
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2020
  19. Psalmanazar

    Psalmanazar Most improved member; A+

    Pyrate Slaytanic Cliff Clavin
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    I suspect he’s getting free samples. He promotes manufacturers who send him free shit. If he has to buy speakers, he makes sure they are 20 years old with no restoration and measures them oddly. Not that he can measure inefficient 85 db per watt bookshelves with his current amplification.

    He also handles things from manufacturers he does not like roughly. Schiit, ATC, PMC, and Sennheiser.
     
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2020
  20. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    Added your first post in regards tot he Topping/SMSL connection as CASE #6 to the first post of this thread.

    Where there's smoke there's fire.
     
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