BWC (Big Woofer Club): Why Big Woofers Matter

Anyway, where is what I got in my big cabs. If you want to stop mickey-mousing around, the good stuff will be high quality. You are absolutely right about that.

They can be picked up for $200 on fleabay (JBLs similar models today are $700 new) and since they were actually made in the Valley decades ago, most will still be in good condition today. If not, there are dozens of places that will recone them to factory spec. The Qts is something crazy low like 0.22 (look at the magnet). The downside is that they need a refrigerator sized box because the VAS is insane. People think are they subs. However, they are best down to 35Hz even with an 18". JBL kept to their guns on efficiency and sensitivity rather than trade that off for deeper extension. Below 35Hz should be handled with a dedicated sub, but with most music, it probably wouldn't be necessary.

 

Look, you just don't know what you are talking about. You've never even had a 10" speaker in your place, much less a good 12" or 15" setup. You can argue all you want, but everyone where who has built their big woofer setups here know that you are are wrong. I can't even say that I hear realistic bass from 9" woofers anymore.

Everything you are saying tells me you are not experienced, only talking in theory, and wrong theory at that. Damping in woofers is a function of mechanical and electrical damping. Qts = Qms + Qes. If you want tight bass, just look for a low Qts driver. What it comes down to is parameters to reach efficiency, extension, distortion, and if you want Qts (Qes, Qms). It's just a one helluva lot easier to get all the desirable characteristics with a larger woofer.

And no, it's not impulse response because a woofer is only asked to play low frequencies. You can't make 40Hz or 120Hz go any faster.

Go out and either buy (with lots of money) or make this stuff on the cheap and discover for yourself. If we are wrong, assuming you didn't screw up on a design, then let's agree to disagree.

Forget it. You win.

 

We are talking about the same thing and have the same goal. I know what fast tight articulate visceral bass sounds like. The reason I go for the larger woofers is not for deeper bass. It's for faster tighter more articulate cleaner and more visceral bass, more midbass and upper bass than the low bass. I don't think I've built a big woofer system yet that goes below 37Hz without the aid of a subs.

I'm just saying, go hear an Edgarhorn "sub" sometime if you want "fast" bass.

I don't want to argue with you, but I would prefer that you not put words into my mouth in terms of implying my preference for loud shitty bass flabby bass because that's crossing a line that pisses me off.

fast = high frequency capability
"fast" = transient response

 

I was a roadie once, so I am use to lifting big cabs.

 

You brought up impulse response and its importance to "fast" (transient response) or fast bass. This explanation is highly relevant IMO. You can't throw out technical term to support your argument, and then cry foul when the discussion turns technical, especially when it's highly educational and a great illustration of why impulse or step matters little for woofers.

There is such a subjective thing as "fast" bass, but because the word fast is used, it leads to a lot of misunderstanding. I think we've seen measurements that demonstrate some aspects of "fast" bass via the attack and decay envelopes of sine bursts.

"Fast" bass (subjectively meaning tight, impactful, Mayweather fast punchy, focused attack, articulate, not flabby, not one-note, not lingering) is a combination of numerous factors, measured attributes or specs:

1. Fast attack and decay envelopes for a sine burst
2. Low distortion
3. Aligned step response, which includes the timing of the highs, a lot "bass" actually includes the highs
   
4. High relative Qms, lowish mechanical damping
5. High efficiency, free power results in less soft sound
6. Low Qts, overall high damping, mostly from big magnet, low Qes
7. Low relative Xmax, VC in the sweet spot
8. Low Le
9. Room / placement

 

The step response will be the same regardless of filter because the driver will be bandwidth limited. Whether it be bandpass, lowpass, slow, or fast, linear or minimum xo. @Hrodulf was simply trying to illustrate how bass frequencies actually appear in relation to the highs in terms of IR / step. This is kind of a nitpicky sideways irrelevant argument that you just came up with because you are now talking about a 1kHz signal. This isn't the first time I have noticed your shifting the argument. I don't think anyone here will disagree that a smaller woofer is much better to mate with a tweeter at 1.5kHz-3kHz for a two-way. No one here is suggesting that a 15" woofer be mated to 1" tweeter, that 15" woofers are more easily placed, or more portable.

Are you OK?

 

f = ma
how dare you!

+2

Low distortion is huge. Trading off the potential of 10Hz deep bass for 6db more efficiency is huge: that 100W power amp just became 400W. This is why big drivers with inherently lower Fs are desirable. There's more to trade. The obvious downside is that a dedicated midrange would be needed. That's a good thing though. Dedicated mids are awesome.