BS Cavalli LL Concerns

Discussion in 'General Audio Discussion' started by Rotijon, Oct 24, 2015.

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  1. dubiousmike

    dubiousmike Friend

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    FWIW - spritzer and, I believe, kg as well, were also very complimentary of schiit's original mojo's design in one of the thread's over there. You have to respect that sort of candor particularly because it is a direct solid state balanced competitor to gsx at a fraction of the price.

    They are sometimes harsh critics, no doubt, but with respect to something like the Lau, doesn't the hobby sort of need people who are going to dissect the design and provide some counter balance to mike mercer's and hype-fi's "it costs $7k so it must be f'ing great" attitude?
     
  2. OJneg

    OJneg The Most Insufferable

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    Woohoo let's get this party started:

    • How is the price of the amp have anything to do with the given explanation? You're telling me that if Cavalli sold this amp for 1k then all of the supposed "safety hazards" would be ok? It is an engineered product and Cavalli outlines everything logically. Yes he uses a third party boardhouse and production facility to make his gear. Nothing is out of the usual here! Anyone who is familiar with building commercial electronics in the US could tell you that!
    • While you're explaining to us nincompoops about how electronics work, why don't you explain how adding some slip-on connectors to the IEC terminal is going to improve the reliability in the long run? If anything those contacts stand to oxidize and make worse connections over a few decades.
    • I'm guessing you graduated with an EE from KGUniversity with that high voltage comment. Traces don't need to be thick for high voltage low current boards. The traces to a 6.3V heater (for example) will be thicker because it's all a function of current not voltage! The concern with high voltage PCBs is arcing. I'm sure you like the idea of a nice big inch wide trace to carry that 600V....except it would just increase the chance of arcing to another component and add more parasitic capactiance. Again, if you or KG has any real world examples of Cavalli's stuff being so underengineered that it's failed in the field, then please let us know and I'd be willing to change my tune.
    • "Current of 600V" hmmmm....yeah I don't even need to respond to this.
    Like to add that I have nothing against HeadCase people, but the Cavalli lynching just goes beyond stupidity
     
  3. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    Sure. But the level of harshness should probably be better justified IMO.

    Saying "Look! the board is too thin", "Too much solder there", "Too little over there", "Go f**k yourself", are not exactly telling me much in the way of how the amp will perform.

    There was a thread in CS (I think before shit went down at HC), where Alex disclosed his performance numbers, and Kevin lost it. I think he said something like "Impossible under room temperature conditions" or something like that. I don't think that he (or Spritzer) ever addressed that by measuring the LL themselves when they had it. That would have been very interesting to me.

    Also, have the characterization and certification concerns on some of the Headamp products been addressed?
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2015
  4. velvetx

    velvetx Gear Master West/Vendor Spotlight Moderator

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    I just want to start by apologizing for posting the GS-X thread as it seems to have gotten way out of hand (just noticed most of these posts were moved to another thread). Personally I think that the topic is kind of misleading as we made a thread specifically talking about another thread from 2013. As far as I know the two man think tank hasn't revisited Cavalli Audio products since the 2013 brutal slaying of not just a product but of a company as a whole (this is something I believe is wrong and you can call it being nice or PC but this was just wrong). Making this a Justin vs Alex battle to me is also wrong. We are talking about two people who make great products and maybe not all of them are winners but they should be judged fairly (by the sound they produce). Ultimately isn't how they sound what is most important to everyone? Alex and Justin aren't doing anything illegal or wrong they build amps they aren't sleeping with another man's wife or killing innocent people.

    I will be one to say I would never dream of opening up a chassis of an amp and just start poking around. It's not because I don't think it's cool it's because I really don't have a clue as to the inner workings of amp construction. I know computers as I have built them for years but when you start talking about transistors and caps and other individual parts inside an amp I am lost.

    Anyway onto the point. Cavalli Audio makes great products from what I heard (liquid crimson, liquid gold SS, liquid carbon, and liquid portable). The sound signature, details, sound stage, and bass I heard was superb. I can tell you that every single product had that liquid, syrupy, smoothness that seems to be the present in all Cavalli products. I personally met Alex which I had never met before and he just said sit down and listen. I did and I liked it enough to say that I probably spent more time at the Cavalli booth than any other booth I visited at RMAF. I admit I am a noob and don't listen to everything that other people seem to listen for (treble specifically) but I enjoyed what I heard. If that type of sound signature that I described sounds like something you enjoy you should try to see if you can get a chance to listen to one. I assure you Alex isn't someone who tries to cram a product down your throat or say it's the best thing out on the floor. He just invites you to listen much like the guys from Schiit Audio.

    In regards to the GS-X and why I chose it. I thought a bit about it as I was going to buy the liquid gold SS after the show. I went to @drfindley audio paradise and listened to some awesome vinyl. I came away with another end-game idea after speaking with everyone and @TMoney who taught me a little about resale value and how I should also factor that into the equation. I did think some about that but ultimately what turned me on to the GS-X amp over the Cavalli was the fact that I am going to end-game vinyl. Thinking about how syrupy, smooth, and dynamic the Miles Davis tracks sounded on drfindley's setup I thought a little bit about the type of amp I would need to buy. After thinking about and having listened to the GS-X a few times before and liking that sound as well I made a decision. Keep in mind for me I am much more bass focused and for whatever reason the treble issue that some people have isn't as apparent to me (don't know whether this is a blessing or a curse). So after thinking about it I thought back to the Cavalli sound signature and kind of entered a crossroad. I thought to myself what would Cavalli's products who already sound liquid, syrupy, and smooth sound like with vinyl which to me also had the same sound? Kind of like many people on the GS-X thread saying don't use a brighter headphone with the GS-X I used the same logic about my decision to go with the GS-X versus the liquid gold SS. My conversations with Justin via e-mail have been very helpful in choosing the right amp for me. He responded quickly and answered all my questions including some about headphone pairings I currently have as well as future purchases. Like Alex he didn't try to sell me and explained to me if I had any issues or didn't like the product they had a 30 day return policy. What is there to complain about for me? Nothing.

    I guess the point I am getting to is that don't let this thread deter you from buying either companies product. The types of posts you should be reading are at the below which includes subjective feedback based on one product and I would like to thank those that chimed in as the people who were on topic on this thread made some good points about the amp as well as pointed out the negatives (which to me no amp is perfect and there are going to be people who don't like it but at least they discussed the things they didn't like and offered constructive feedback like don't use an HD-800 with this amp). Also the most important thing is listen for yourself and don't let others lead you into something you don't like. If you don't like something speak up and constructively tell everyone what you personally didn't like about what you heard.

    http://www.superbestaudiofriends.org/index.php?threads/gs-x-mk2-amp.246/
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2015
  5. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    The GS-X thread is still there and what you are discussing IMO relates perfectly to the GS-X.

    What Kevin, Spritzer and others said about the Liquid Lighting in 2013, I believe belongs to another thread. Like I said before, the LL and the GS-X don't even drive the same type of headphones.

    I believe these LL concerns came up when someone was curious about a GS-X vs Cavalli Gold comparo. And then the Cavalli Gold is too expensive, Cavalli builds are crap, and so forth started coming out. I believe such concerns, specific to Cavalli, deserve their own thread and clarification.

    There is nothing wrong in my mind if someone expresses concern about specifics of an amp. And so, hopefully this thread can help with that.
     
  6. Judeus

    Judeus Facebook Friend

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    As I understood it from what Alex told me is in his early days he had some trouble with production, but has worked diligently to get it solved.


    Rember schiit asgard 1 days and the dc offset problem with them bending headphone transducers?

    Schiit happens, what matters is you work to resolve it. Unlike lhlabs
     
  7. cooperpwc

    cooperpwc Friend

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    Curious. I do not remember putting a comment exclusively dealing with the GS-X mk2, itself commenting on a comment exclusively dealing with the GS-X mk2, in the Cavalli Concerns thread.

    It's a mystery...
     
  8. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    It's no mystery. This is not HF. I moved them and did the best I could to keep the two discussion separate. I moved those comments back. If you find any more issues I'll do my best to fix them.
     
  9. zerodeefex

    zerodeefex SBAF's Imelda Marcos

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    Wait, when did our forum get so many people with their tongue up kevin gilmore's butthole?

    The reason why this is so contentious is because every few months we've consistently gotten a new group of people who have to proclaim Alex is the f'ing worst dude ever and his products are donkey shit. This group usually extolls the virtues of either Headamp products or the KGSSHV as being the real true path to the future. That dead horse is beyond beaten, it's pretty much a stain on the sidewalk now.
     
  10. Altrunox

    Altrunox Friend

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    What else people with good cash can do?

    Since EC just do something right when Craig get lucky, and it'll probably fail after a while since it's made of cheap stuff from China.

    And Cavalli products are all shiit.

    So there're no others "Premium" amp builders are avaliable besides Headamp.

    http://www.head-case.org/forums/topic/786-the-headcase-stax-thread/?page=353#comment-635142
    http://www.head-case.org/forums/topic/11157-the-abyss/?page=2

    http://www.head-case.org/forums/top...c-headphone-amplifier/?page=26#comment-691832
    http://www.head-case.org/forums/topic/8327-im-on-a-roll-the-kgsshv/?page=133#comment-612868
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2015
  11. Maxvla

    Maxvla Friend

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    I've met Alex tons of times now, and despite me never buying ANYTHING from him (his stuff is too rich for me), he has always been great to work with, and offering to help with meet expenses unasked. He's got a hands off approach, but will answer anything you ask him, including getting way too technical for me to follow.

    Now that I've said that you probably think I'm just defending a friend. I've met Justin twice and he's been just as kind and courteous with a similar sales manner, letting the product sell itself.

    The real tragedy is that while the internet allows extensive, quality, peer review, in almost every case it is handled in the worst way, a tar and feather affair. Since you are talking over the internet and not in person, you feel insulated and that you don't have to take responsibility for your words. Reviews on sites like SBAF and HF and many others are not the same, and I have no problem with people slamming or praising products on a technical level, because almost anyone who attempts to do so, still has no clue what they are talking about. When you get actual designers commenting on other's works, this needs to be held to a higher standard. Disagreement, exposing a wrong done is still fine, but do it the right way.

    I have a feeling the vehemence of their critique is somewhat the blame of HF. We feel it here when the latest LCD4 comes out, the manufacturers hail it as the next coming, the masses eat it up, and anyone with a lick of sense gets 'We hope you understand even if you don't agree'. They have to be loud enough for people to take notice of their critique despite the China-like filtering. It's a tough place to be, where proper critique gets smashed, but letting through products with real issues leads to sloppier and sloppier products which could be worse and worse sounding, or even dangerous. I don't know the answer.
     
  12. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    It was the way they went about it. There were some legitimate concerns, but overall it almost seemed like HC as a whole had an axe to grind. Nitpicks on enhancement type stuff was written in a way like they were severe issues. There were some nasty posts in reply to Alex along the lines of "go f**k yourself thought leader" or something that like which were later deleted.

    In the end, Alex did improve the quality of his amps. HC should have been given a lot of credit for this; but instead HC walked away diminished in the eyes of many because they did it in such a personal nasty way.

    I had a T2DIY and that amp had a massive current spike when it was first turned out. Had Alex done that, the HC crowd would have been all over him. KG/Spritzer have had a history of crapping on the technical aspects of other peoples' designs, usually on items where BOM cost is less than 30% of retail. Spritzer use to have some sort of communist manfesto in his amp page about not making a profit on the amps he sells. Alex might have been a target because he was once DIY, but decided to go capitalist and make expensive stuff.
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2015
  13. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    Alex doesn't and never had a dedicated forum for his designs. Some of his DIY designs or collaborations have been and are still respected to this day: CTH, EHHA, CK2III, etc. Ti (AMB) still brings a CK2III to the meets. Two of the founders of Changstar and several other DIY members have built CTHs. I know others with EHHAs. (EHHA is one either OJ or I want to build if we have time).

    I thought this might be something you should know, just in case you were not aware.
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2015
  14. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    I remember when you posted about that DIYT2 KG amp massive current spike back in CS. It was quite concerning. I think it was over 18 Amps and over 1.7 kW. I was the first one to comment using poorly worded sarcasm:

    "Whaaatttt!? 1700 Watt / 19 Amp spike?! for a few seconds!?... man those fuses are gay..."

    LOL! RD lost his mind. Even N3rds commented on that thread.

    ujamerstand who I have not seen in quite a while posted:

    "Purrin, do you mind posting these on HC T2 thread as well? These results probably explains why some people had problems with their transformers."

    These are the measurements provided then:

    t2 max current.gif t2 watts.gif

    Those are IMO pretty seriously unsafe transients.

    It would have been lovely to have Spritzer take this amp and go through a detailed and dissecting examination of it.

    Could someone be harmed by this KG amp? Possible.
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2015
  15. HitmanFluffy

    HitmanFluffy Hoping to see real genitals someday!

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    I think you're trying to be needlessly edgy but honestly I can't be sure of what on earth you've typed out here after you threw syntax out the window.
     
  16. MuppetFace

    MuppetFace Sultana of Seafoam Green - Moderator

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    Yeah, there's a lot of "pent up rage" from ol' Chang folk. It comes from years of dealing with BS, years of seeing good people smeared and thrown under a bus just to satisfy manchild egos.

    I've never met Alex in person, but all my dealings with him suggest to me he's an upstanding guy. All my dealings with his products---inside and out---suggest to me he's an upstanding amp designer. These sentiments are usually echoed by people who've actually dealt with him in reality. Power word: reality. Ie., not some twilight internet la la land of "amp grenades" and holy crusades.

    I mean, for all the false accusations about Alex's lying that were thrown around back in the day, hardly anyone even thought to question KG and the baker's claims about their relationship w/ Stax. Or how certain things like different soldiering techniques could actually make an amp explode.

    All this is ancient history by now. No need to keep beating the dead stable yards.

    By the by, I also own a KG designed amp, the HeadAmp Blue Hawaii SE. It's a nice amp for the SR-007 in particular. The Cavalli amps are better for the SR-009 IMO.
     
  17. cooperpwc

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    ^ So you didn't sell it. That's cool.

    Nice to see you here. Wishing you very well. :)
     
  18. Tari

    Tari Friend

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    This war is over in my opinion. People who have tried enough gear settle in with what they like. In my case that's a DIYT2 at home and an LAu at work. Just have an FAQ for misinformation from either side over the years so someone can quickly be brought up to speed without dredging up bad blood that has since been transfused.
     
  19. burnspbesq

    burnspbesq Friend

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    This comment is flat-out hilarious, and it's reflective of a strain of thinking that has always puzzled me.

    Are there actually people in this hobby who are completely unaware that "big hi-fi" makes products that can be used to drive dynamic headphones?

    Let's see, just off the top of my head, there's Ayre, Macintosh, Luxman, Bryston, NAD, PrimaLuna, T+A, Audio Research (not to mention the pro-audio side of the house, where you have Benchmark, Lynx, Lavry, and a host of others) ... and before you make a fool of yourself by blurting out "they all suck," list the ones you've actually auditioned.
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2015
  20. JewBear

    JewBear Almost "Made"

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    Pretty sure it was sarcasm.
     
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