CD vs LP Comparison (Same Release)

Discussion in 'Music and Recordings (vinyl , 8-track, etc.)' started by Chris F, Sep 28, 2015.

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Which sample do you prefer CD or LP?

  1. CD

    9 vote(s)
    75.0%
  2. LP

    3 vote(s)
    25.0%
  1. Chris F

    Chris F Boyz 4 Now Fanatic - Friend

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    Did a little experiment with my latest purchase and got the CD along side the LP so I could directly compare. Thought you guys might be interested in my results. I also added a poll to make it interesting. :)

    This is a new Salsa/Latin band out of Australia called Quarter Street and the song "Se Casa La Rumba" is a cover of a old song by Larry Harlow/Ismael Miranda.

    Here are the 70 second samples:
    CD: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/39392/Se_Casa_La_Rumba-CD_Sample.m4a
    LP: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/39392/Se_Casa_La_Rumba-LP_Sample.m4a

    The samples are level matched (BS.1770-2/3) and I fixed the channel balance on the LP so that it matches the CD. The LP sample was created using a VPI Classic with periphery ring/HRX weight+Lyra Kleos->Seta Model L "Flat"->TASCAM-DA3000. RIAA was done in software with Pure Vinyl and other post processing was done using Click Repair and Izotope RX4.

    A look at the frequency spectrum for each sample shows how the Kleos is colouring the sound in the upper treble/air region but otherwise they are identical. (the LP has been SRCd to 44Khz for comparison)

    LP is the top graph. CD is the bottom.
    Freq Spectrum LP.png Freq Spectrum CD.png For me the additional treble/air really brings the singer forward in the mix as well as makes the percussion "pop". I like it though it definitely won't be to everyones taste.
     
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2015
  2. OJneg

    OJneg The Most Insufferable

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    Can't grab the files
     
  3. Psalmanazar

    Psalmanazar Most improved member; A+

    Pyrate Slaytanic Cliff Clavin
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    The CD and LP obviously share the same master. The LP just has the distortion and limitations of vinyl. The waveforms show enough; there's no need to listen. This has been common practice for over twenty years.
     
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2015
  4. Chris F

    Chris F Boyz 4 Now Fanatic - Friend

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    Should work now, I replaced the spaces in the filenames with something browser cut and paste friendly. Sorry!
     
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2015
  5. Chris F

    Chris F Boyz 4 Now Fanatic - Friend

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    I don't hear any distortion or limitations in the vinyl replay sorry.

    I do agree that both mediums were almost certainly sourced from the same (probably 24/96 digital) master which is why I wanted to conduct the experiment. In theory there should be no way for the vinyl to be better unless your digital playback system is really inferior to your analog. (mine is not)

    What I did gain is a visible demonstration and understanding of how the rising response of my MC cart colors the sound. Based on this I have a few more tests I'm going to do later this week when I get a chance:

    - apply the EQ curve/freq response from the CD to the vinyl and see if they sound identical
    - load the Kleos as much as possible and repeat the test to see if the rising freq response is reduced without affecting other aspects of the sound

    Also, I now am very confident that it's absolutely OK to apply treble rolloff to my rips if I feel they need them.
     
  6. OJneg

    OJneg The Most Insufferable

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    I thought the CD was less blurry.

    Also had a bit wider staging. Listen to that guitar that's panned left. It's seemed more developed with the CD.
     
  7. Chris F

    Chris F Boyz 4 Now Fanatic - Friend

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    Yes I agree, sound stage on the CD is slightly wider. My best guess as to why is that it's a combination of the DAC used in cutting and the process itself. The channel balance on the LP differs from the CD on a track to track basis and of course the cartridge has a channel balance spec as well.
     
  8. Chris F

    Chris F Boyz 4 Now Fanatic - Friend

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    Did a few more tests:

    - If you apply the CD frequency response to the LP they sound identical. (no surprise) I also created a HF shelf that does almost the same thing and again they get very close. Conclusion: In future I will only buy new vinyl releases from digital masters if it comes with a free download card for the lossless digital version and/or to support the band.

    - Changing the MC cartridge loading had minimal impact on the frequency response. I went from 50Ohm to 200Ohm (based on what was in the Kleos manual) and 15K moved about 0.3dB. What did change is that the treble got rough and grainy so it went straight back to 50Ohm. I don't think it's the phono stage distorting. The Seta uses the AFE out of a cable modem and has bandwidth from 0 to 5Mhz; I would be surprised if the cart generated an ultrasonic spike that could affect it. It's also extremely difficult to push into slew rate limiting. My best guess is that I'm hearing the limit of my tonearm/and or table. Gives me some rationalization to get the 3D arm. :D
     
  9. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    Obviously this comparison might not be entirely fair as the LP has to suffer though another A to D conversion.
     
  10. wnmnkh

    wnmnkh Friend

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    Yes, it is not fair. But then, it seems many vinyls after 1970s use digital delay lines to cut lathe, which makes the records essentially ADA instead of AAA for last 40 years. Pretty much few vinyl recording after that period is pure AAA.
     
  11. Chris F

    Chris F Boyz 4 Now Fanatic - Friend

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    Absolutely. You're listening to D/A -> A/D -> D/A with some extra color from the analog playback and some possible irregularities from the cutting process.

    Still, I wanted to do the exercise for myself to prove that there is no magic in vinyl playback that will make a record cut from a digital master sound better then the digital master itself. Learned a few things about my setup in the process so that's a bonus. :)

    I will continue to buy new release/digital sourced records in order to support the bands I like (also, physical records and jackets/extras are cool) but when it comes time to play it out at my gigs I will play the lossless digital unless we happen to be spinning records that night.
     
  12. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    According to Steve Hoffman, digital delay lines were used by studios who junked their old vinyl cutting equipment only to realize they needed that they needed them. When rebuilding the the cutting systems, the studios decided to do it on the cheap with digital delays lines instead of having real mastering tape decks with a preview head or a cutting system with an analog delay.

    The delay lines were used by mastering engineers so they could monitor levels on the fly and adjust things before the cutting stylus did something screwy. Also, just because the cutting systems have digital delay lines, it doesn't mean the mastering engineers have to use them or can't bypass them.

    I'm also pretty sure digital audio didn't exist in a usable form (sufficient bit-depth and accuracy on the cheap) in the 1970s.
     
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2015
  13. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    That's absolutely true. Modern recordings from digital masters, even from the boutique labels don't sound any better on vinyl. You can tell. Something's missing in them. I guess it's a good thing that I like a lot of big band recordings of the 50s and 60s, and popular music from the 70s and early 80s.
     
  14. drfindley

    drfindley Secretly lives in the Analog Room - Friend

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    There are few analog to analog to analog recordings out there (The White Stripes for example), but there are few.
     
  15. Psalmanazar

    Psalmanazar Most improved member; A+

    Pyrate Slaytanic Cliff Clavin
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    My Bloody Valentine's mbv and a bunch of recent Finnish metal records were all analog, AAA SPARS code productions. There are still many albums just recorded onto analog tape (ADD) too.

    For new LPs, what you're really looking for is dedicated vinyl masters that sound much better than the CD and digital formats. mbv on LP did not sound better than the CD. ZOM's Flesh Assimilation was a digital production but clipped to hell in every digital format but the 2x 45 rpm gatefold that was direct metal mastered from a digital file at GZ wasn't so that's the one to get if you like their crusty death metal. Otherwise, you're just buying a collectible unless your analog chain is worlds better than your digital one. Sometimes LP boxsets come with nice goodies like hardcover books, flags, and posters while the CDs versions might have identical mastering and sound better due to the format superiority so you will end up buying both. I've never listened to my Demilich 20th Adversary of Emptiness LPs; I just bought them for the zine.
     
  16. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    Yup, that's right and I forgot about that. Recently released music on vinyl format oftentimes is better mastered than the CD version. Less compressed ironically.
     
  17. pedalhead

    pedalhead Friend

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    Yes it's a cliche but it's definitely all about the master. I have a number of vinyl rips and CD counterparts and, given a similar sounding master, I tend to favour the CD mainly due to the cleaner sound. But it is often the case that the vinyl version will be less dynamically compressed. Examples - Radiohead "In Rainbows", Daft Punk "RAM"
     
  18. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    Oh crap. I need get get Daft Punk "RAM" on vinyl then.
     
  19. Chris F

    Chris F Boyz 4 Now Fanatic - Friend

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    Yup the Daft Punk guys did a vinyl master for RAM and it sounds awesome. I don't know about less compressed but the tonal balance is different on the vinyl with a little less bass and a bit more top end. It was also cut from tape. They spared no expense in the production and it definitely shows. Highly recommended.
     
  20. DaveBSC

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    That Daft Punk album is an interesting case. I don't think they necessarily used less dynamic compression on the vinyl mix, but they definitely EQed it differently. They didn't smash the CD master, so backing off the levels wasn't as necessary as it usually is. Normally, dedicated vinyl masters are the only way I'm able to stand modern music. There's still auto-tune and EZdrummer and all of the various other cheats and hacks that allow musicians and engineers to not actually do the work and make music generally suck compared to what it was in the '70s and '80s, but hey, at least some dynamic range is better than nothing.

    It's worth mentioning that you can't use the TT meter DR score as a means of comparing vinyl to CD. Running the sound from the turntable through the A/D converter creates a waveform that appears much more dynamic than the straight digital waveform, but it isn't. The TT meter doesn't have ears, it can only read that waveform, which it then mistakenly reports as more dynamic. I've seen loads of examples of DR5 CDs and DR10 vinyl that was obviously cut from the same master (in some cases confirmed as the same master by label execs and engineers).

     
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2015

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