Computer Audio Players

Discussion in 'Computer Audiophile: Software, Configs, Tools' started by JoshMorr, Oct 4, 2015.

  1. julian67

    julian67 Facebook Friend

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    I'm wondering if people (think they) can hear the difference between a manufacturer ASIO driver and ASIO4ALL and WASAPI. Should be interesting. I'm also curious if audible differences between demonstrably identical inputs and outputs might be more or less noticeable according to whether the listener is gender binary, gender fluid, in a transition period, or has merely consumed a lot of fluids. While the moon is in Capricorn. Or something.
     
  2. bixby

    bixby Friend

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    Have you been living at Hydrogen Audio? And keep wondering, haha.

    yeah, I know it's all 1s and 0s so it all sounds the same on every computer, every wire, every dac, etc. Unless it is broken, it all sounds the same, Blind ABX rules, long live Britannia, etc. :rolleyes: |\/|
     
  3. Pharmaboy

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    an open mind will always find some truth or other, in time. great post!
     
  4. julian67

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    It's not about Hydrogen Audio types and claims that different hardware all sounds the same. I'm poking fun, deservedly and easily, at the claim that *the same* solid state hardware sounds different from itself.
     
  5. haywood

    haywood Friend

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    The hardware itself is inert, it requires software to produce any results and how the software is programmed can indeed make a difference in the sound you hear. If you have your computer connected to the internet you need to update the software for security and the underlying software that affects audio can change from one version of the operating system to the next. It’s not unthinkable that changes were heard.

    Further a Windows PC (or Mac) is a very complex operating environment that has many different priorities of which sound reproduction is just one (and usually not the highest priority). Moving to dedicated hardware, whether that’s a cd transport, streamer or something like a raspberry pi, is often seen as an improvement – even if it’s just from lack of fan noise – and generally cost a lot less to operate than a computer. I consider switching from my mbp to a raspberry pi + spdif hat one of my better music related decisions. Of course ymmv and part of my satisfaction is undoubtedly because I decided to help out a bit on the distro I ended up choosing so I’m able to help resolve any issues I have with the software.
     
  6. julian67

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    The point about both ASIO and WASAPI is that each gives the playback software the *exact same exclusive use* of the hardware. The mechanism to allow that access is different; the result is identical. ASIO exists because WASAPI didn't. To try to conflate this with OS security updates or fan noise is such woolly thinking that even a sheep would look embarrassed and sheepish.

    Baaa.
     
  7. Azimuth

    Azimuth FKA rtaylor76, Friend

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    There are many pro audio software that will not use WASAPI because they expect a well written ASIO driver for only exclusive access. Some audio software can even release the ASIO driver in use when the program is in the background or minimized, something I don't think WASAPI can do. There is also much more control of I/O and routing with ASIO.

    For 2-channel playback for DACs, WASPI works fine.
     
  8. julian67

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    Nothing you described touches on bit perfect audio playback.

    Pro audio software? That is capture and processing software. We are talking about audio players. Check both thread title and context for confirmation.

    In my first comment on ASIO vs WASAPI (previous page) I did identify that a functional ASIO driver can offer advantages for audio capture (specifically I mentioned latency). But there is absolutely no difference in terms of playback audio quality between any API or driver which gives the same playback app exclusive access to the the hardware. If you bypass the software and pass the data to the hardware it doesn't even matter which operating system you use, or even its architecture. That's the whole point of passing the data untouched to the DAC!

    Anecdotally, I use Windows 10 and Debian Stable and Android. While I'm at home they all pass their audio (actually data) output (bit-perfect, no mixers) to the same device. Sorry magical thinkers, but so long as you have a driver or API that passes the exact same data to the exact same device then they are all identical.

    Obviously if you have your USB cable aligned in the wrong direction, or your ethernet cables are the wrong colour, or your wifi BSSID has an unlucky alphanumeric combination in its name or key then naturally everything comes out of the speakers as Boney-M singing Ra Ra Rasputin, but somehow it mostly works. Weirdly the exception is when I actually try to play Ra Ra Rasputin and it comes out as Mozart's Great Mass in C minor. I suspect witchcraft.
     
  9. capetownwatches

    capetownwatches New

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    JRiver MC23 64 bit for me, for a number of reasons, primarily that to my ears it absolutely does sound better than any other player I've used (Foobar/Musicbee/VLC/WMP et al). Ease of use, library functionality and tagging are all excellent.

    I use the DACs' supplied ASIO drivers, in my case VIA (Audio-gd) and Thesycon (RL Concero), and have not had any issues whatsoever. Benchmark DAC 1 USB requires no drivers and thus I use WASAPI exclusively on Windows.

    I cannot hear any difference when using WASAPI instead of ASIO, although this may just be down to my cloth ears...
     
  10. julian67

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    Back specifically on topic:

    just use any audio player you like to use that doesn't change the output, make sure it bypasses any system mixer, and make sure you are happy with whatever assembly of hardware actually does the job of decoding the data and making that magic electricity that goes to the loudspeakers. Don't forget to buy good loudspeakers ;)
     
  11. Azimuth

    Azimuth FKA rtaylor76, Friend

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    I apologize, I know this thread is about players. I didn't want to get off topic. I do audio editing an like use nice DAC for this and some of the Windows audio software I use (Steinberg produce) mostly uses ASIO. Wavelab can use WDM or ASIO, but ASIO. Not all DACs have ASIO drivers, bit the ASIO drivers built for specific basic pro interfaces (Focusrite, Presonus, etc) are usually built well.

    Still, bit perfect is not considering things like jitter. Lots of translations gping on in getting from hard drive though protocols and what not. This is why we have USB decrapifiers.

    Anyway, I have even noticed that tiny settings in Foobar, like the Replay Gain set to the Source and Processing to None makes a difference. Default settings are Album gain and although I have no Album gain settings on any of my files, just having this setting makes for worse sound. One I did this, it was closer if not indistinguishable from JRiver.
     
  12. julian67

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    Replay Gain is an artefact introduced by the playback software at the discretion of the user. To introduce it into a comparison of WASAPI vs ASIO is redundant.

    Replay Gain is not a "tiny setting". It specifically, intentionally, by design, audibly changes the output in software before it is sent to the playback hardware. Its effect is the same regardless of the use of ASIO, WASAPI, ALSA, pulseaudio, Direct Sound, Kernel Streaming or any other driver/API/OS or mechanism for passing audio data to the audio playback hardware.
     
  13. haywood

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    Drivers are just one facet of the system, even if ASIO and WASAPI product identical results (no idea as I don’t use Windows) the resource requirements may be different, or using one or the other might mean something gets routed to a non-optimal code path or thrashes the processor cache or whatever. Security updates now affect how the processors work because modern processors are vulnerable to flaws in how they operate wrt things like hyper-threading. A modern PC is a very complex system and it’s naive to think the software you run makes makes no difference. And fan noise obviously increases the noise floor of your room, I’m not sure why all this qualifies as “wooly thinking” to you but whatever. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
     
  14. julian67

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    Baaa.

    Shear me.

    Please offer actual example of a "non-optimal code path" (seems to be a hot new thing). Then one that impacts on how a DAC supposedly treats identical data differently. Or tell us all more about "thrashes the processor cache or whatever"

    I'm sorry but your post is as close to meaningless as makes no difference. Passing even the most "Hi Res" audio data stream to a device designed to process it is very nearly a zero load task for any computer modern enough to be shipped with the awesome power of USB 2.0 (available since the last 18 years). My phone can pass DSD untouched to suitable hardware wirelessly. My antique iRiver H140 (2005 vintage) can pass 16-bit 44100 untouched via TOSLINK. My extraordinarily unpowerful Intel Atom based Eee PC netbook (2010 vintage) can pass DSD streams untouched to a suitable DAC while it is also running a USB TV card and recording. The only hardware I own which is still so crappy that it is no good for audio is a first generation Raspberry Pi Model B and that's because the idiot designers used the same USB single bus for power, ethernet and data. Doh. I don't use it for audio, though it makes a very decent shadowsocks server.

    Baaa!
     
  15. loncher

    loncher New

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    Using winamp for many year. No player can replace it
     
  16. Josh358

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    JRiver, MC25. I'm a bit (no pun intended) frustrated with it, though, because of lack of Tidal support -- more and more, I find that I'm streaming. And I want to try Qobuz as well. Can't use their native apps, since I"m using the filter and multichannel in JRiver to implement a crossover.
     
  17. crenca

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    You can hack a solution with a DNLA app like Bubbleupnp. I may have used this thread as my setup guide

    https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/22125-tidal-gt-jrmc-gt-dlna-renderer/

    or a similar one (TLDR)...
     
  18. YMO

    YMO Chief Fun Officer

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  19. Josh358

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  20. elmoe

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    Fckin lol. Pardon my French.

    I use AIMP currently on Windows. It's full of bugs and lags like crazy.

    I still like it.
     

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