Dangerous Music Convert-2 DAC Review - Stream of Consciousness

Discussion in 'Digital: DACs, USB converters, decrapifiers' started by purr1n, Oct 26, 2018.

  1. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

    Staff Member Pyrate BWC
    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2015
    Likes Received:
    89,778
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Padre Island CC TX
    Two reasons, it's "open baffle", or horn in the front and damped exit in the back. So cap HPF to control excess excursion at high SPL (I do crank it up). I tried it with the lid at the end to make a closed cavity, but that sounded like shit.

    IMG_20181031_135557.jpg

    Other reason is to implement an x-over slope for woofers to take over. @Cspirou is right, I'm not a purist. I do strongly believe that driver excursion should be limited if possible. It's knowing what I want and balancing priorities.

    I have no doubt this approach would lead to a slightly cleaner sound, but I'm following the audiophool philosophy* of transmitting the characteristics of the 45 tube amp ("mains" amp for 350Hz) to the Vidar SS amp for better high-low driver integration. I actually took your suggested approach with Saga as preamp running into the JLH69 for the highs and Crest CA2 for the lows in an earlier iteration of this project.

    * This approach was suggested to me with the use of REL subwoofers. I've tried it both ways and always preferred using the speaker-ins (powered from the mains amp) of subwoofer plate amps instead of line level inputs (from the preamp). Now, it might be interesting to power the subwoofers from the Vidar! But I would lose the ability for a cheap 48db/octave slope which provided the best integration of the subwoofer and Beta 15s (no gaping null in the bass).
     
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2018
  2. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

    Staff Member Pyrate BWC
    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2015
    Likes Received:
    89,778
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Padre Island CC TX
    Your SC307 monitors use DSP to implement the filters and possibly do other stuff like give it a near-perfect frequency response. There is an A-D conversion. The cool thing is that since class D amplification is used, err I mean "PWM", since PWM isn't a dirty word like class D, another D-A conversion isn't necessary. The problem of course is that you are still using insipid sounding class D.

    But the deal is, WTH are you doing with a Yggdrasil? If I were you, I'd just the get cleanest sounding DAC that I could get. I would actually downgrade to the Gungnir Multibit A2, which I am getting surer after repeated listening, is less muddy sounding compared to the Yggdrasil A2. You will be running through yet another A-D and Class D amplification anyway, so certain advantages of high-end DACs will be nullified. Another consideration is the Dangerous Music Source DAC: decent kick, good transients, but weak in the low bass (you have a sub, so you will be able to tell for sure), but since imaging sucks so badly, and there is a dull veil (worse than slight dark-grey "blackground"), I'd rather go with Gungnir Multibit A2, unless you can't stand the loud relays of Schiit gear.

    Convert-2 may not be a bad idea, but I just don't think you will get the most out of it. That would be like putting Alonso in a shitty F1 car (LOL, that dude, probably the best current F1 driver, kept making bad decisions after a great start to his career). These are the kind of TOTL DACs at the boutique houses with the exotic speakers, not self-powered DSP'd Class D monitors.

    Don't be Alonso.
     
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2018
  3. GoodEnoughGear

    GoodEnoughGear Evil Dr. Shultz‎

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2015
    Likes Received:
    3,070
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Cape Town, South Africa
    @Cellist88 have you rotated your DAC1541 back in recently? I ask only half in jest.
     
  4. rlow

    rlow A happy woofer

    Pyrate Contributor
    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2017
    Likes Received:
    7,738
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Canada
    Maybe Mike should be updating his “buy better gear” light to look at downstream gear and transducers, rather than only upstream. ;)

    Edit: By the way, that’s a joke. Have never heard those speakers, therefore would never pass judgement on them, although I can see how DSP intended to smooth out FR could potentially be problematic.
     
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2018
  5. Cellist88

    Cellist88 Friend

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2015
    Likes Received:
    1,607
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    NJ
    @purr1n I'll consider the Gungnir, though I might not be happy if it feels like a downgrade...only way is to try. I guess I can answer @GoodEnoughGear 's question as well. This is going to be a long post, so moderators should feel free to move the post where they see fit.

    @purr1n

    I have heard many high end setups and I'm sure there are many that are great. However one thing I learned is....being exotic and expensive and hi-end doesnt necessarily mean it sounds good. I remember visiting a family friend's home, and the guy literally had like 15 tube amps, and with like 200 tubes everywhere. He made his own speakers, and he had 4 vinyl players, not to mention cd players wtvr. He also had another electrostatic speaker setup aside from that, and had the biggest vinyl collection I've seen. He literally had two copies of each vinyl. One for use, and the other as a backup in case the one he was using somehow got damaged. I wasn't really into speakers at the time, so I didn't look into which brands he had, but he defintiely wasn't a noob. Speaker system sounded mediocre. Another example is a host that I was staying at, while playing a private concert, had a full rack of mcintosh components and nice floorstanding speakers....wasn't very impressed.

    Went to new york audio show I think two years ago...and most of the exotic rooms with crazy amounts of gear, interconnects, tube amps, dacs, wtvr....were mostly disappointing. I know the hotel rooms are to blame as the weren't ideal, but I'm sure each vendor tried to optimize it as best as possible. Worst room was the home theater system room that was blasting Mad Max: Fury Road and the bass was rippling everywhere. The only room that I visited about 3 times was the PMC/AVM Room. That was amazing, and I would maybe buy pmc fact 12 speakers in the future.

    Also heard many systems in Stereo Exchange(worst and most unfriendly store in NYC, I'm glad they relocated) , ilike the Bower Wilkins 802, and martin logan stuff...but none of them blew me away.....was even more disappointed when hearing the prices.

    That said I haven't heard all systems and I'm no 2 channel guru, so I can't definitely say what sounds good or not, but I would take ATC active monitors over anything i heard so far....with the exception of maybe those PMC speakers.

    As I listen to music for maybe 45 minutes a day(outside of cello playing), Its not something I want to go neck deep into. I also moved 3 times and travel back and forth a lot between europe and US, I wasn't willing to buy home gear because the operating voltage thing is a pain to deal with, so I thought Studio Monitors were a safe option.

    I tried some of studio monitors. I did own some adams with the pairing sub for a while because they were purely analogue and I was in germany at the time. Unfortunately I found them too bright and harsh up top, and the bassy at the same time. Focals twins were good, but they were slightly sterile and something bugged me about the timbre. Must have been the Be driver..I don't know. After trying different monitors I landed on the Eves. HAD the same response as Marvey....OMG Class D...maybe class A/B is a better compromise.....this extra A/D conversion is going to make the sound suffer and lose detail...but they sounded fantastic and right for me. Great amount of detail, Great imaging, but never harsh, and tight bass that doesn't boom. I didn't feel like I was missing any detail from Adams. I know @David De Lucena has a pair EVE sc205's so maybe he can chime in on how they sound. I'm confident he would say they sound excellent.

    I had a ECP T3 + Focal Clear fed by a soekris dac1541 and they lost out pretty hard against the sc307+ts110 monitors in every aspect. So I would think they are pretty good. That's why as much as the new headphones sound enticing, I don't think I'll ever go back to them. Iems on the go are possibly the only other thing needed.

    They are good enough to tell the difference between dacs very easily. To answer @GoodEnoughGear As much as I liked the soekris dac1541 and its clean, crisp sound, I felt that it was a bit too lean, sterile, and a bit harsh up top. Also the bass was a bit loose on the bottom and not the tighest it could be. The decay was too fast to the point where I couldn't felt I was missing things that were happening in between notes. I also was puzzled by how the balanced output and the single output sounded different. Balanced was very tight and precise, and more dyanmic but it was sterile and missing the nuance and flow of the single ended. I've confirmed this with many of my musician friends, one of whom I sold the dac to....and he uses it singled ended. Also cycle through the input selection and there are two usb options. They sound different. One sounding sharper with better transients but with flat staging. The other one is more relaxed, and holographic. They shouldn't sound different but they do. Anyhow the sound bothered me a bit, and I tried different filters on hqplayer....making me believe the filter wasn't great.

    I had these gripes about the soekris but I started to believe in R2R as it sounded much more pleasing to me than the geekout v2+, chord stuff, or Sony daps. That's when I heard the Yggdrasil A2 at last canjam NYC along with the Gungnir Multibit(though it wasn't confirmed). I never liked any Schiit Dac before this point. After all the accolades thrown here, I remember hearing the A1 versions the canjam 2 years before and thinking....these sound grey, flat, dry, and sterile. But the A2 sounded rich, and when listening to some string quartet stuff it showed what I was missing in the soekris.

    I still wasn't sure so I grabbed a Yggdrasil A1 and did a comparison. Soekris had better blackground, transients, crisper, cleaner sound, but the Yggdrasil even with its grey background, had a bigger soundstage, better bass(bit too much though), better dynamics, and microdetails. Soekris sounds a little too light weight and also significantly etched in comparison.

    Grey background was a big problem though because when I compared the two...like the car race in the movie Ready Player One, you can easily hear how grey the sound is on the Yggdrasil 1 was compared to the Soekris. Despite this, the felt the Yggdrasil was a improvement across the board, and couldn't live with the soekris.

    My younger sister happened to visit me. I didn't tell her anything, but i asked her to listen to both the dacs. Note...my younger sister never listens to music on her own because she doesn't like noise. After 5 minutes on each dac, She mirrored the same thoughts and told me to get rid of the soekris. She told me she wasn't happy with the Yggdrasil either cause she thought it was too bassy, too dirty, and fatiguing with all the background noises and low level detail it was presenting(still better than I can't listen to soekris cause my ears will bleed for the harshness and thinness).

    I guess it was easy to hear the difference on my Class D, A/D converting, monitors. Point being is there was a difference with the Yggdrasil on my class D, A/D, inferior speakers. Now I had to get rid of that grey background with the uprade...etc. Even after the upgrade the Yggdrasil's background still wasn't "98%" as Marvey stated, and while it did have gains in transparency, flow, and microdetails, I felt the treble was slightly tamed, and the dac overall was a bit laid back and soft. Seeing it wasn't perfectly to my liking, then I saw @cskippy sell his, and through PMs, we had the same gripes with the Yggdrasil and therefore I was interested in the Convert 2 before Marvey's stream of consciousness. It wasn't a FOTM leap. I was just wanted more impressions.

    Eventually with all the audio gear, I want to maybe start a personal studio when I move to a bigger place. If I were to record, the thought of a pro mastering dac didn't hurt. As good as the Yggdrasil sounds, I don't think i would call it neutral and good for studio use in the future. My gear can take the +22dbu signal no problem so I wouldn't need to get additional transformers to lower the output of the convert 2. I don't see studios recording on r2r adcs or using r2r gear...so I wanted to see if there was something pro that didn't sound sterile. So why not get the Convert 2? Its also convenient in case I move to Europe, I don't have to worry about servicing 110v to 220v and back if I move back to the US. For all these reasons, the Convert 2 was interesting. @JK47 It wasn't as you thought....just jumping at the whim of one person's impressions on SBAF. I could care less about what people think. Anyhow keeping the Yggdrasil a2 for now as switching dacs isn't a high priority. More impressions from the loaner would be helpful.

    TL;DR, I feel audio is a personal thing, and it should be something that gives you enjoyment. Who cares what other people think...@slankoe should be able to enjoy his wooaudio wa7 if it makes him happy? I'm sure he read the threads here before making the purchase. Avoid class D, A/D monitors cause they suck and don't use a Yggdrasil because you can't hear the difference! Well I did compare dacs and test things to make sure I can clearly hear a difference from my previous dac, and the Yggdrasil gives me enjoyment so should I keel to another person's opinion?

    That said I respect many of the opinions here and appreciate the contributions and effot from members like @purr1n, @Hands, etc. Its great that SBAF can be somewhat of a guideline and steers us noobs from making a stupid choices. I hope that they can respect that members like myself, are taking their opinions into account and am not blindly making choices at a whim. Excited to try the @james444 modded JVCFD01 for a beater iem after reading the impressions here :).
     
  6. Hands

    Hands Overzealous Auto Flusher - Measurbator

    Staff Member Pyrate MZR
    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2015
    Likes Received:
    12,285
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Colorado
    Home Page:
    @Cellist88 I have a feeling you’ll either have to decide between a DAC that has fast transients and a super black background but covers up some micro details or one that sounds like it has a higher noise floor, flatter, but is more resolving. Maybe I’m misinterpreting Marv’s thoughts, but I think you’ll struggle to find the perfect in between that does it all.

    Just approach with caution and give it tons of thought before going one way or the other. You will always end up compromising in some way no matter what you get. Pick your wins carefully.
     
  7. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

    Staff Member Pyrate BWC
    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2015
    Likes Received:
    89,778
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Padre Island CC TX
    tl;dr

    If you want to use TOTL pro-audio DACs, then stick with TOTL pro-audio monitors like ATC.

    ATC builds true high end monitors without DSP and uses class AB amps. They are awesomer than Adam or Eve. Most of the higher end established post and sound houses I've been to use Adam monitors, often in multichannel configuration. This means direct outs from those Digidesign boxes. Hardly high-end. Only the weirdo boutique places use TOTL DACs. I think I saw a Forssell MDAC-4 once. They had the big JBLs.

    Not my fault you used discrete resistor ladder R2R. They have a distinct sound. Better off running Modi 3 or ODAC into powered monitors.
     
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2018
  8. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

    Staff Member Pyrate BWC
    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2015
    Likes Received:
    89,778
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Padre Island CC TX
    No, what he needs to do is to upgrade the downstream components so he can get the most from what the higher end DACs can do to be able to make a proper decision.

    As far as Yggdrasil vs. any discrete resistor DAC: my dick, wrapped up in thermal undies, covered with boxers, and with jeans over that, can hear the difference, even through the crappiest A-GD amp and Ultrasone headphones. No duh.

    Personally I'd sell all that crap (Yggdrasil + Eve), get ATCs, a Modi 3, and a Sys.

    Speakers > Amps > Source.

    Already said this before, and especially important if one has no philisophy/approach and no idea what they want to accomplish sonically.

    P.S. Also never said Eve was crap. Just meant it wasn't good enough for TOTL sources.

    The ATC mid dome is the best mid driver on the planet. Last time I checked, they were over $1k. The more affordable ATC monitors, don't use those mids. ATC knows it too, so cough up the dough.
     
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2018
  9. Psalmanazar

    Psalmanazar Most improved member; A+

    Pyrate Slaytanic Cliff Clavin
    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2015
    Likes Received:
    5,345
    Trophy Points:
    113
    ^
    The full range ATCs are British; the bass and the treble aren't great for more popular and repetitive styles of music but the ATC SCM300 should reproduce the complete sound of a great cello captured in a real concert hall.

    Only full upgrade from the Eve you have Cellist, if you want to keep the AMT tweeters, is probably the biggest and best HEDD stuff: http://www.hedd.audio/en/tower-mains/

    Soekris is butt.

    Dude Cellist, you'll probably like the Dangerous boxes (and probably a few other brands like the TotalDACs) more than Schiit DACs. Try stuff and form your own opinion. Who knows what you may prefer. Dudes on the internet cannot decide that for you. You'll definitely get your chance without loss of $$$$ with all the "warm butt loving to the point of sticking an icyhot patch on their crotch" tweakers trying this stuff out now who will all soon unload it.
     
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2018
  10. Jozurr

    Jozurr Facebook Friend

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2015
    Likes Received:
    208
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Why get a Modi 3 and a sys when one can easily get a proper monitor controller if one decides to buy monitors?
     
  11. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

    Staff Member Pyrate BWC
    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2015
    Likes Received:
    89,778
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Padre Island CC TX
    Idea was to do a trade without spending more money. Max out speakers to known quantity to what he said he already liked, and upgrade upstream components in due time.

    I mean why not JBL m2s with the TOTL Crown amps that take AES in with RedNet?
     
  12. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

    Staff Member Pyrate BWC
    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2015
    Likes Received:
    89,778
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Padre Island CC TX
    Or don't be a whiney dickweed talking about sexperiences with Stradivarius cellos, and ask nicely to be on the loaner. I already said Convert-2 loaner will be limited to real potential buyers, not curious porkers who leave no impressions. @Cellist88 fits "real potential buyer" to a T.

    Geez. People need to learn how to win friends and influence people. Me, I'm an old fart and lost cause. I'd be making way more money if I learned that shit 20 years ago.
     
  13. atomicbob

    atomicbob dScope Yoda

    Pyrate BWC MZR
    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2015
    Likes Received:
    18,653
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    On planet
    When the Convert-2 goes on tour, I'd like the opportunity to measure it.
     
  14. Cellist88

    Cellist88 Friend

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2015
    Likes Received:
    1,607
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    NJ
    My apologies. I didn't think that this wouldn't harbor any animosity. i thought I was being civil in my previous post. I just wanted to explain how I ended with a yggdrasil dac and why I have class D, A/D monitors and my reasons for considering the dangerous convert 2. I don't believe EVEs are the final word in audio reproduction and I can see that they may not be enough to unlock 100% for the yggdrasil or the dangerous convert 2. I'm just stating it sounds good enough for me at the moment. Will stepping down to the Gungnir Multibit yield the same result? I don't know, but i see it as an option. As for the changing speakers, I think I need to move to a bigger place if I am to take anything like a JBL m2. Think room takes prescendence above all else Lol.

    I would love to try the Dangerous Convert 2 when it goes on tour.
     
  15. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

    Staff Member Pyrate BWC
    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2015
    Likes Received:
    89,778
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Padre Island CC TX
    LOL. We love giving you a hard time.

    @zerodeefex says you need to play more cello and make more love to women.
     
  16. E_Schaaf

    E_Schaaf MOT: E.T.A Headphones

    Pyrate BWC
    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2017
    Likes Received:
    9,589
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Staten Island, NY
    Home Page:
    Ive mixed on ATCs and can confirm if you're going for that hyperdynamic, musculine, ballsy sound that is easy to dive into, there is nothing better. Maybe aside from some of the bigger JBL 43xx.

    FWIW my beat-to-shit cheapo L55s slam harder than any headphone I've ever heard and most of the speakers we have for sale. Edit - and this is off the 6WPC Amp Camp Monos I built for cheap... And a SYS for volume control.
     
  17. zerodeefex

    zerodeefex SBAF's Imelda Marcos

    Staff Member Pyrate BWC
    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2015
    Likes Received:
    14,051
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Given the nature of setup, pairing, etc, 9 times out of 10 I suggest people go for the M2 over the 4367.
     
  18. GoodEnoughGear

    GoodEnoughGear Evil Dr. Shultz‎

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2015
    Likes Received:
    3,070
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Cape Town, South Africa
    Thanks for the detailed post, @Cellist88. There is definitely an extra available input - in my case I have two TosLink. Maybe @soekris can chime in here - I just assumed this was a mapping in firmware from an additional unimplemented logical input (for BT in the future for example) which simply pointed back to the same physical interface. If that's the case they couldn't possibly sound different because they'd be the same exact input, but maybe there is some other internal routing happening that could affect things. In terms of leanness I've just gone EQ with DMG Audio stuff (and sonarworks, but I model the Sonarworks curve in Equilibrium) and that seems worked for me, with the caveat that I have nothing 'better' to compare it to.

    @Marvey, I appreciate your commentary on the monitors. Like @Cellist88 I opted for active monitors, but with a clear mid-fi budget. I landed on Genelec 8030B (+7050 sub) which are the last of the line that are AB - the subsequent generation is class D. I also find them the most resolving transducers I have by a good margin. I'm moving into a new place soon and will relegate the Gennies to desktop duty and will look for something for a more dedicated listening space. Convert-2, Solaris are available here locally so they're enticing options vs Schiit which isn't locally available or supported.
     
  19. Xecuter

    Xecuter Brush and floss your amp twice a day

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2015
    Likes Received:
    2,016
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    Australia
    Have you compared the two?
    I mean I don't really like the idea of a fully active system, I rather tinker myself with dac/amp pairing than rely on the EQ + DSP supplied with the m2 + crown.
    only a few people I know have ever compared the two and most people preferred the salon 2 to the m2 and the salon 2 vs 4367 is really a matter of preferring aggressive forward sounding vs polite laid back sounding.
     
  20. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

    Staff Member Pyrate BWC
    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2015
    Likes Received:
    89,778
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Padre Island CC TX
    Well, we can still get the JBL m2 without the DSP right? I would hope so.
     

Share This Page