DAP discussion thread

Discussion in 'IEMs and Portable Gear' started by zerodeefex, Oct 8, 2015.

  1. Mithrandir41

    Mithrandir41 Friend

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    You're coming across as very doctrinaire. Most of us here have our tastes and know what we like. Sony good, chi-fi bad, AK bad etc just makes you sound ignorant. Free advice, don't start a pissing contest.
     
  2. animus

    animus Almost "Made"

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    I’m just voicing my opinion and providing a data point to someone who asked a question. You’re free to disagree and provide counterpoint.
     
  3. EagleWings

    EagleWings Friend

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    I am well aware of that. I said that because only Chord has been too vocal about how the design is the best and other designs suck.

    No, I was pointing out that you were over generalising the sound characteristics based on design. But I see your point that you are referring particularly to the Chinese brands taking the easy route for the DAP design. Let me ask you, how do you know that Sony's PWM design is not a lazy implementation? Just because it is different from the norm, it doesn't make the design less lazy. If their PWM design is really that good, why does their A series DAPs suck balls and the ZX100/300 sound so mediocre and, why did Sony ditch it and go with the AKM DAC for their DMP-Z1?

    If at least most of the DAPs from Sony were good sounding, we could say that there is a pattern. But at this point, given the plethora of Sony DAPs that use the PWM design, when only 1A and 1Z are good enough, statistically one could even pin it down as outliers and claim that PWM is a poor design choice, be it lazy or not.

    Only 1A and 1Z hit decently well. But even those 2 don’t hit as hard as LPG or Cayin N8, which are kind of my benchmarks for hard hitting DAPs. The other Sonys give the impression of hitting hard when their bass boost is turned on, but at that point they become a bloated mess.

    The veil on the 1A isn't as worse as the 1Z and far from the ZX300, but it does have some veil.

    I have directly compared the Hiby R6 SS, ZX300 and 1A. ZX300 exhibited the most scratchiness and digitus, whereas the 1A and R6 exhibited similar levels of it. Shanling M6 and Cayin N8 have even less digitus than the R6. So no, not all ChiFi daps are very scratchy and digital sounding, and not all Sony DAPs are void of scratchiness and digitus.

    And since you ask, here are the Sony DAPs that I have experience with:
    Owned - A15, ZX300, WM1Z; Listened to Extensively - WM1A; Briefly Tried - ZX100, ZX2 and A35.

    1A and 1Z are nice DAPs and I like them, but gross generalisations like one design is better than the other is simply wrong and misleading.
     
  4. animus

    animus Almost "Made"

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    They’re not the only ones who do that, honestly. A lot of manufacturers with their own homebrewed D/A schemes tend to like their babies a lot more than the competition.

    Oh yeah, the A series is pretty f'ing awful. I’m not saying that it’s a home run every time, but when it’s done right, it’s way better than what the competition has to offer. IMO of course.

    Regarding the DMP, part of it is that the S-master just isn’t all that powerful. There’s a long ass interview somewhere with the designer explaining why they went with the AKM chips and a lot of it is down to the fact that they wanted to use analogue amplification over the digital amp that the S-master has.

    Maybe they are outliers, I won’t discount that possibility. But I definitely hear some of the stuff that makes the S-master good in the ZX300/500, not to mention the ZX2. It’s just not as well implemented as the 1A and 1Z. Implementation is ultimately going to make or break a DAP (or amp, or DAC, or literally anything else) more than chipset, but I do think that there is an inherent potential to stuff like this, and the ceiling for performance between the S-master design and an ES9038 or AK4497 are not the same.

    I actually quite like the original LPG. The 2017 one is too warm, but the original does some things very well that the 1A/1Z can’t match, like microdetail. I don’t think it slams harder than the 1A though.

    As for the N8, meh. Too bloomy and has too much of that nutube coloration. In terms of raw slam I think the one player that outdoes the 1A and 1Z is the QPM, but that one has some weird bass transients. Takes away what makes DD bass DD bass.

    I’m not hearing it. If anything I find it slightly bright. The 1Z and ZX300 definitely sound veiled though.

    I have not tried the SS, but the original R6 was absurdly bassy and had a distinct ESS treble timbre. The N8 tries to cover it up with the nutube but I can still hear the AKM treble sparkle/glare in it. I don’t necessarily think all chifi DAPs are digital sounding (again, the original LPG is damned good at not sounding like a glarey mess. Its main issue is the graininess in the mids and the warmth possibly being overbearing on some setups), but I don’t think anything beats the 1A and 1Z at having treble that doesn’t make me want to not listen to music.

    I don’t doubt you’ve heard this stuff. I simply don’t like the other DAPs I’ve heard, at least not as much as the 1A and 1Z. If it’s not timbre or tonality sounding wrong, it’s flat staging. Or it’s lack of bass slam. Or it’s poor dynamics. At this point I’m jaded with the portable audio market and am more or less content with what I have. Discussing it is more a pasttime than anything.
     
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2020
  5. EagleWings

    EagleWings Friend

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    - I have seen other companies do it too, but not as aggressive and sophisticated as Chord with their measurements and seminars and etc. And having been a victim of it at one point, it is the first brand that comes to mind, Lol.

    - Precisely what I was getting at. It is highly dependent on the implementation. Even when we consider the well implemented 1A and 1Z, how do we even begin to isolate the benefits of the S-Master, when they also exhibit some of the similar flaws as the traditional designs? But you say you've been able to, and I will respect that and will keep an open mind. If Sony can make good sounding DAPs, then more power for us customers.

    - As for the ceiling of performance, it may be apples to oranges comparison without defining the scope. If we are keeping the scope strictly to DAPs, I am yet to be convinced that one method is better than the other. In fact, in the affordable DAP segment, my experience suggests that the faults of the traditional design are either fewer or lesser in degree, compared to entry-level and mid-fi DAPs from Sony.

    - Either i) PWM tech cannot be scaled down to an affordable level without serious compromises in performance or, ii) Sony is deliberately gimping the performance or, iii) Sony is incapable of finding the right method to make the design work on an affordable level. Whatever may the reason be, Sony hasn't delivered on the affordable DAP segment yet.

    - As for the LPG, we seem to have had almost polar experiences. I found it more impactful in the bass than the 1Z. I didn't have as much issue with the midrange grain, as I had with its treble. While I won't call its treble a glarey mess, it was quite stressed, sharp and strident. I definitely preferred the more natural sounding treble of the 1Z when I had both DAPs.

    - N8's tube mode was a let down for me as well, but for different reasons. The N8 does have some treble sharpness, but its mostly from the amplification stage. I know this because I use it as both DAC and DAP. But it is not as bad as the glare on the R6. So extrapolating form my experience, where the R6 and 1A had similar treble glare, I am inclined to believe that 1A's treble timbre is only on par with N8, if not worse. I am not saying this for the sake of this argument, you can check my posts on the N8 thread on Head-Fi about what I feel about N8's timbre.

    - While I have come to hate Chord DACs, they are still kind of my reference for veil-free sound (except the Mojo). And when I compared the 1A with my Hugo2, I definitely heard some veil on the 1A.
     
  6. animus

    animus Almost "Made"

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    Oh yeah, Rob Watts and his constant advertiseme- I mean seminars every Canjam really get mind numbing.

    Oh yeah, it is apples to oranges, no doubt about it. I won't pretend I have any objective proof that S-Master has a greater potential than an off the shelf D/S chip, but my experiences with these chips in a desktop setting as well as my personal bias make me feeling like the S-Master is less held back sonically by the D/A scheme. Part of it is that I don't hear a consistent and distinct negative sonic quality like I do with the 449X or the ESS stuff.

    I'd wager it's a combination of the first and third one. Sony being Sony suck at trickling down, and on top of that they're getting sidetracked with the whole Android thing now. It'll probably be a while before we see them make a non-shit budget DAP.

    Interesting. I don't quite recall if it was particularly strident in the treble, would have to go find my notes on it from my audition session and I'm not sure where they are. The main things that stuck out to me in direct comparison to the 1A were the midrange graininess, better microdetailing and the differences in stage size and presentation. 1A felt wider, more diffuse, more holographic. LPG was more upfront and compact with sharper imaging.

    Interesting. Do you hear the AKM treble timbre on the N8 as a DAC only as well? I'm going to guess that the amplification stage happens to exacerbate it, rather than trying to work around it.

    I do feel like the Chord stuff is more bright than it is the Sony stuff being necessarily veiled. Hugo 2 is a little overbearing with the upper midrange and treble, and has much more aggressive transients. Veiled in comparison? I suppose, but in this situation I'd argue the veil is preferable to the overly fatiguing Chord sound.
     
  7. EagleWings

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    - From what I have read, Sony didn’t move any mountains with its recently released A100 and ZX500 series either. At this point, all I can do is continue to stay hopeful that they will get their act together for the next release. As for their high end DAPs, I hope they are able to squeeze out more performance out of the design, retain the Walkman OS, switch over to USB-C and, not put the damn port on the side.

    - Yep, LPG’s stage is average in size and a little upfront. It’s stage always left me wishing for more. I am surprised it’s treble didn’t bother you, especially since you seem quite sensitive to treble oddities. If the LPGT is worse than the LPG in the treble department, someone needs to show Lotoo what good treble is.

    - I have never been keen to associate a DAPs sound with the DAC chip, because the amp stages always added their own characteristics. In my experience, I have never had much problems with the treble timbre of AKM chip based DAPs. N8 is probably the first AKM based DAP on which, I was able to try it’s DAC stage separately*. Now having heard it as both DAC and DAP, I can say for sure that the DAC stage is free of the treble glare or treble weirdness and, it’s definitely the amp stage that adds a bit of steeliness to the timbre, especially when you go with High Gain and P+ mode. A while back, I realized in retrospect that all AKM based DAPs I had tried exhibited some level of softness to notes and dynamics. Even the AK380, which I adored for its timbre, had that softness thing going on. So when it came to the N8, I was more concerned about the softness. Fortunately, N8 doesn’t exhibit the softness I have noticed on other AKM based DAPs. N8 is not perfect and does have other quirks and oddities. But treble timbre issues and softness are not among them.

    - About the veil on WM1A, comparison with the Hugo 2 was for mere reference and an extra level of confirmation. Even without Hugo 2 in the picture, I have tried a couple of 1As and not a single time did I feel it’s transparency level to be noteworthy.

    * - The other AKM DAPs either didn’t have a Line Out or, I never got to try the Line Out or, their Line Out simply didn’t surpass the amp section.
     
  8. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    Sony has been going with heavy dose of the "organic" sound deal with their higher end S-master DAPs. This is the reason why many ZX2 owner such as myself turned off the sound processing daemon in Android - even then, the ZX2 still has this organic sound.

    The TOTL WM1Z went full blown "300B toob" organic. No matter the EQ settings, I just wanted chuck to golden two-pound DAP over a highway retaining wall. The WM1A is a bit better in regards to not being so organic, but still like the ZX2, no way totally around it.
     
  9. Stuff Jones

    Stuff Jones Friend

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    @purr1n - How's the ZX2 with the Solaris? @KenBall demos them with the AK Kann Cube so apparently that DD can benefit from a good deal of juice (which the ZX2 doesn't have).
     
  10. brencho

    brencho Friend

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    In my limited time demoing them, I’ve found the Sony daps (across the board, to varying degrees based on specific model) a bit too warm and organic for the Solaris, which to me teeters on the edge of being too warm/dark sounding. Have a Kann Cube incoming to test with the Solaris.
     
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2020
  11. animus

    animus Almost "Made"

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    The A100 is another A series stinker, nothing new there. The ZX500 sort of sounds like a 1A with slightly pulled back treble so it sounds more warm neutral rather than warm U shaped. It’s okay. I do find that for whatever reason technical ability is still far behind the 1A/1Z (about on par with the ZX300, maybe a little worse) and it has all that Android fuckery I don’t really want to touch so it’s kind of a mixed bag to me.

    The LPGT doesn’t deserve to get associated with the original LPG. It details about on par but it sounds so wrong. Has this bizarre glassiness to the midrange and glarey ass treble. Even people I know who don’t usually complain about bad timbre or sharp treble on sources complain about the LPGT. I have no idea what Lotoo were thinking when they made it but it’s embarrassing considering they’re actually one of the chifi DAP makers I think is pretty cool. I hope the LP6k is better, but Lotoo players hate my SD cards and refuse to read them so I have yet to hear it.

    I didn’t spend much time with the N8 in SS mode, but with tube mode it did seem like a lot of the Nutube coloration was compensating for the AKM softness. I’d attribute it to the bloominess adding its own transient characteristics that more or less overwrite that specific sound from the chip itself. I did hear the treble timbre that I seem to be able to pick out pretty consistently on AKM stuff though. Sometimes it’s glarey, sometimes it’s not, but it always seems to be there. Think of it as a slight added crispness to cymbals, not necessarily piercing but more of an emphasis on lower treble crashiness. I haven’t heard an AKM source without it, and I haven’t heard a non-AKM source with it, so I’m fairly certain that it’s the root cause. Could be totally wrong though.

    Fair. I would not call it the most neutral or transparent player on the market, it inherently has its own flavoring that is noticeable if you pay attention to it. I do think that flavoring works really well with most things though, and I’ve never found it excessive like I have the 1Z or even the DMP.
     
  12. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    What Brencho said. The problem is this: How do I get non-organic + smooth highs, but without boring?

    The old Wolfson based AKs could be the ticket. The Cirrus based AK stuff sounded like butt. Mojo might have been OK. In the end, I was used to the ZX2 UI and preferred it to the AK UI.
     
  13. EagleWings

    EagleWings Friend

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    - Yea, not surprised at all. Btw, have you tried the Sony PHA-3 via its Balanced connection. My friend tells me that its performance comes very close to the 1Z. Its a shame that I owned it briefly but never got to try to the Balanced. The SE was very underwhelming, so I sold it in no time.

    - Yea I am a fan of Lotoo when it comes to their hardware and software. But not their tuning. I was so looking forward to the LPGT as the rumours suggested that they were moving away from the reference tuning. And in my mind that meant, fixing the treble issues. But I was bummed when I learnt that the rumour ended up being just a rumour after all.

    - I see. I'll try to listen for it on the N8. N8's tube mode is a good example of a bad tube amp. In the traditional sense, it is really a hybrid topology. I don't necessarily find it bloomy as much as muddy. Also the oddity in its presentation is what gets to me sooner than the muddiness, which actually becomes better after the tube warms up. While the timbre sounds a bid compressed, I find the tone to be pretty nice. But I really don't use the N8 much in tube mode.

    - I also agree that a slight veil or flavouring is not necessarily a bad thing. I was merely pointing out that veil, which exists in the traditional D/A approach, also exists on Sony's PWM approach as well, including the 1A.
     
  14. animus

    animus Almost "Made"

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    I've tried it with my A12t. Didn't like it for the same reasons I dislike the TAZH1ES: excessively warm and blurry sounding, except unlike the TAZ it sounded muddy as well. Sony really are hit or miss, and when they miss it's not pretty.

    The hardware and software for the touchscreen Lotoos is actually really good. It has a similarity to the Walkman OS and is pretty responsive, on top of having the same volume knob that the LPG has which is pretty nice. If only the thing sounded decent...

    I should go try the solid state mode sometime. When I last heard it I thought it was nothing noteworthy, not amazing but not horrible either, though granted I wasn't paying attention. The tube mode caught my attention because of how radically different it sounded from pretty much everything else, but that overly flavored sound grew weary on me fast and I wrote it off. That and the N6ii being a disaster made me sort of shelve Cayin away mentally.

    Yeah, I get that. Though granted veil is not a D/S thing only, god knows how many R2Rs out there sound veiled. Feels more like an output stage/tuning thing than an inherent D/A conversion thing.
     
  15. Scubadude

    Scubadude Almost "Made"

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    I know it's not for everyone but so love the reference tuning of the LP6K. It reminds me of my favourite desktop amp, the original Phonitor, which also doesn't get much love here either. I just adore peeling back the layers of detail, without the source or amp getting in the way.
     
  16. Stuff Jones

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    I think the recent developments on this thread indicate that we should do more DAP loaner tours on SBAF. There's precious little consensus on decent DAPs.

    Some new models that look promising in bargain, mid and upper price levels that I would personally like to hear are: Shanling Q1 ($120), IBasso DX160 ($400), Dethonray DTR1 ($550), and the Lotoo Paw 6000 ($1,200).
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2020
  17. YMO

    YMO Chief Fun Officer

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    The Sony DAPs IMO are great for easy listening on the go. I just pop in my JVC Drops into my ZX2 and honestly it sounded quite good for something on the go. My WM1A of course sounds similar to the ZX2 without the sound crap being on, but I do agree that maybe it is a little more organic sounding. Still great if I'm on a road trip and I need a good all rounder.

    That's weird, I didn't get dark when I had the Solaris running through the WM1A balanced. I was using the marshmallow tips.
     
  18. mscott58

    mscott58 Friend

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    If we do this I'd be happy to lend out (to Friends) my Sony 1A as it doesn't get much use compared to my 1Z. Cheers
     
  19. LetMeBeFrank

    LetMeBeFrank Won't tell anyone my name is actually Francis

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    Looking for a DAP for my buddy. He loves music but he's not super into tech, and he wants physical buttons. Would also like expandable micro sd storage.

    He won't be driving headphones with it, just using it in his cars via aux and with his old Sansui stereo via rca-3.5mm
     
  20. EagleWings

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    For use in the car, I’d recommend the Sandisk Music player or a Sony A15/A25, if he could find one. No button based DAP I’ve come across can beat the UI of the Sony A15/A25. The downsides are, for around $200 the sound quality is meh and it uses the proprietary Walkman port. Sandisk player’s sound quality will be in the same ball park. While it’s UI is not going to be as intuitive as the Sony’s, it’s still pretty well thought out and easy to navigate with the clicky buttons. Plus the thing sells for $50, and yet feature packed.
     
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2020

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