DarkVoice 336SE

Discussion in 'Headphone Amplifiers and Combo (DAC/Amp) Units' started by Kon Peki, Apr 3, 2016.

  1. JoshMorr

    JoshMorr Friend

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    Uh ohhh - Kon - you've officially entered tube rolling madness.... Enjoy!
     
  2. bixby

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    I just love how people throw around "hot" tube monikers like Bad Boys. Tung Sol never made effing bad boys and lots of tube sellers don't even know what they are exactly. And they were part of a hype train from a few imbeciles back in the day.

    That being said, I love Tung Sols, especially the top getter t plate in my deHavilland pre. Righteously good sound. Looks like you got a good deal for those 3. the prices some folks are asking are stupid high on many 6sn7s.

    I've got some used stuff both in the 6sn7 and big tube flavors for the Darkvoice, if you get the itch. And they can be had for cheap. Message me if you want grab a few. I particularly like the snappy performance of the Cetron 7236 Which is a TungSol design if I am not mistaken.
     
  3. Effusion

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    Very true bixby, crazy tube hype just to try to sell more... but those Tung-sol (plus rebrands) that you bought look nice Kon!

    If you are interested in what "Bad Boys" truly are, they are Sylvanias that were made for about 3 years I believe in the 50's or so that are in fact "T" plates, but elongated with 3 holes instead of the standard 2 (they are tall bottles). They also usually have green labels, as most Sylvanias are either green or yellow. Often, non Bad Boys are labeled as such to try to sell at a higher price, etc. In my opinion, bixby's may differ, the bad boy I tried never really did much for me, at least not up to all the hype surrounding it, but I found that the Tung-sol and early Hytron "T" plates gave me more across the entire spectrum with close to the same amount of impact as the true bad boy.

    The grey plate 6AS7G looks really nice as well and will give you a different flavor than the 6080. I tend to like the 6080s more, but I like tubey sound that is both open and spacious, making the studio recording sound more like a live recording in a way and adding ambiance. The 6AS7G is a bit closer with more weight/impact/clarity and is generally better for rock/pop/jazz, while the 6080s are very nice for acoustic/classical stuff; all other genres can benefit from a combination of the two for the most part.

    Hey bixby, did you ever get rid of that Chatham 5998? With the prices of those things these days, it may be hard to find a good deal on one Kon...

    Anyway, as JoshMorr announced, welcome to the insane world of tubes!! :eek:
     
  4. Kon Peki

    Kon Peki Friend

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    Are you sure the Darkvoice is a hybrid?
     
  5. Effusion

    Effusion Friend

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    I am not actually sure, but I was, at least at one time, under the impression that it wasn't a true OTL amp. However, I'm not really even sure what separates a true OTL from others labeled as such.

    Thinking back, I believe I read it somewhere in a discussion prior to purchasing, but of course, those who were discussing it very well could have been speculating. I do know that some companies, such as Hartung, consider their designs as "true" OTL, but then again I don't really know what makes it that way and if it is just marketing in the end.

    It is very different than actual hybrids, such as the Little Dot, etc., so I may have jumped to some conclusions in my prior statement. I have never taken the unit apart, but it would be interesting to do so, that is, if I knew exactly what I was looking for.

    However, for all sense and purpose, I would consider it an OTL amp until proven otherwise... makes the most sense anyway.
     
  6. Kon Peki

    Kon Peki Friend

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    Thanks, I was just asking because it's very different than my Lyr 2 (hybrid).
     
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2016
  7. Kon Peki

    Kon Peki Friend

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    Some of my tubes have come in the mail. So far my favorite combination is the Tung-sol 6SN7GT with Thomson 6080WA. Subjectively a nice step up from the default Chinese tubes.
     
  8. JoshMorr

    JoshMorr Friend

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    Dark voice is not a hybrid, it has both a power tube and a buffer (output) tube similar to crack and Valhalla 2. OTL stands for output transformer less design.

    Lyr 2 is hybrid as it has solid state power transformer.
     
  9. Effusion

    Effusion Friend

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    Kon, glad you're liking the 6080WA and 6sn7gt! Is the 6sn7 the new production Tung-sol by chance, or one of the old stock you also purchased? I would be interested in your take between the two, new vs. old, as I've never used the newer production ones.

    JoshMorr, correct, the Darkvoice is not a true hybrid, I simply misspoke by using that exact term when I said that my understanding was that it was more of a hybrid OTL but very responsive to the tubes. This was not directly in relation to an amp being both SS and tube at the same time, which I believe is official definition of a hybrid amp. Also correct, OTL means that there are no output transformers to lower the impedance/voltage of the tubes in order to drive the majority of speakers/headphones.

    Since I seemed to have caused a little confusion, I figure it best to try to explain where I was coming from for those interested in the amplifier. My questions in the past regarding the Darkvoice's design was that since it is considered an OTL amplifier, what type of OTL design was it, which was brought up by a discussion a long time ago in one of the early threads about the 336i version, if I remember correctly. This discussion is the only source of my questioning regarding the amp, as I did not purchase the Darkvoice because it was an OTL amp nor was I researching OTL amps at the time; actually, at the time of my purchase it wasn't even marketed as being such when I bought it direct from Darkvoice, through their Chinese outlet, and I remember reading this part of the discussion right after my purchase and also wondering at that time what an OTL amp really was, beyond the acronym. The main reason for me going with the Darkvoice so long ago was the overwhelming impressions of it with the HD650s as well as it seemed like the sound I wanted to go for at the time, plus, of course, the price was good for me at the time.

    I do not believe it is pure design, my understanding was that really none are nowadays, such as those in the early days of the design that would only drive speakers of 600+ ohms due to nothing lowering the signal. We could then assume that it uses capacitors in the output path to adjust, as I believe most designs do, but I am not sure as I have never opened or looked at the insides to try to determine. Then there are companies nowadays who claim to provide a "true" OTL design, whatever that means, such as the eBay advertisement when I purchased my Hartung prototype. Then, awhile ago, I read about other designs out there that do not use output transformers nor capacitors in the path, but are still able to run speakers with lower ohm requirements, such as 4 to 8, due to the design. I do not how they achieve this though, nor would they probably release all of their design secrets as my understanding is the real reason why so many don't design OTL amps is because of the difficulty in doing so and the knowledge required to do it correctly so the unit doesn't overheat, burnout the tubes, and/or sound good. Since the output transformers can be a large source of degraded sound by creating distortion due to their manufacturing, unless they are of very high quality, many commented that cheaper and better sounding units can be made through OTL designs; it makes you wonder why more don't though, but it is probably not very easy to design them.

    My Hartung amplifier does sound quite different than my Darkvoice, using the same tube sets and auditioning on the same system, songs, etc. The Hartung is also lighter in weight, but it could be the chassis, and is visually smaller in overall size. Other than that, I have not opened the Hartung unit either. I guess I always could and take some pictures if folks here are interested.

    In conclusion, I think it is important for me to note that I am no expert in OTL design at all, this is just my understanding currently due to my limited research after I purchased the amp 7 years ago, so please take it lightly, as I may be misinformed. I also hope I didn't cause any more/other confusion... :eek:

    Anyway, design put aside, in my opinion the Darkvoice is a great amplifier for the price and is very responsive to tube-rolling.
     
  10. Kon Peki

    Kon Peki Friend

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    @Effusion - I'm using the old stock T-plate Tung-sol you recommended. I also tried the new production one, and while it too sounded good (and similar) to me, there was an intermittent audible hum that seemed to be caused by it.

    I don't know anything about amp design, but I am struck by how powerful the Darkvoice seems. I don't have to exceed 9 o'clock with any of my headphones (12 o'clock blows out my ear drums), whereas I am sometimes close to 12 o'clock with the Lyr 2 on high gain. Meanwhile, there is no noise at any volume setting with the Darkvoice.
     
  11. Effusion

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    Sorry to hear about the hum... sometimes it just takes a bit with a newer tube, that is one that is unused, to burn-in fully. Try running it for an hour or so and see if it gets any better (might take a bit longer though). If not, do you think you could return it? The nice thing about new production is that often you can return them if they do not work correctly, however some old stock is sold "as is" (as long as it fires up, etc.); depends on the seller though.

    As far as gain on the Darkvoice, I know what you mean and I agree, the Darkvoice has a ton of power! I also only run my headphones at about 9 o'clock on the unit, maybe slightly above if I want to rock out, but anything above that was just way too much for me. The Hartung is actually even more powerful, as I run it at around 8 o'clock and 9 o'clock is just too loud most of the time. Along with my Elekit, also right around 9 o'clock, I actually haven't owned an amplifier where I've had to go to 12 o'clock or past with either the HD650 nor my custom Beyer 770 Pros 80 ohm. The line out of the Darkvoice is equally as loud, maybe just a tad less gain than through the headphone output, but not much.

    If I remember correctly, I believe I had to go to about 11 o'clock on the Bottlehead Cracks that I've auditioned in the past, and they still, with exception of the one with the Speedball and 5998, didn't have quite the power/impact that the Darkvoice does.

    The low noise of the Darkvoice has always been a big plus in my book, as even the Hartung seems to have a slightly higher noise floor. If you do experience any noise at all, the best place to check first is the tubes as some can be a little noisy, especially if they have been sitting for awhile. Nothing quite like a silent background!

    Let me know what you think of that RCA grey plate once it comes in and enjoy the new tube options!
     
  12. DefQon

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    You should definitely try the RCA tallbottle coin base 6SN7 for the output sounds great.
     
  13. Kon Peki

    Kon Peki Friend

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    It arrived today :). Loving the Thomsons right now but will give the RCA a go soon!
     
  14. Kon Peki

    Kon Peki Friend

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    Having listened to the RCA gray plate, I think I prefer the Thomson 6080 by a slight margin. Just a bit more lifelike. But both sound very good to me!
     
  15. LeQwasd

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    Hello, My DarkVoice 336SE is just on the way, and I was looking for information about tube rolling and found myself here.
    It seems, that one likes tube-X, other likse tube-Y. But if you get another tube-X to try - would it actually sound the same as the other tube-X? Aren't they all individual pieces of hardware? Each with their own unique characteristics?
     
  16. JoshMorr

    JoshMorr Friend

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    Each factory makes tubes and each tube type they produce usually sounds very similar. So different factories make different 6080 tubes that have the same specs, but all sound slightly different.
     
  17. Warrior

    Warrior RIP 2021

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    The Dark Voice 336se is currently on Mass drop for $199. Seems like it's a decent enough tube amp.
     
  18. WNovizar

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    I'd rather buy Laconic NBM or DIY Crack myself rather than these. Hell, Vali 2 is trading punch with this and it's 169 BNIB
     
  19. Warrior

    Warrior RIP 2021

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    Both guys in this thread seemed to like it. I don't know, never heard any if them. Thinking about adding another tube amp. Leaning more towards the Lyr 2.
     
  20. blckmag

    blckmag New

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    Hello,


    Let me revive this topic with a question.
    For driving a pair of T1' s, what would be best?
    Hartung
    Little Dot
    Darkvoice
    Decware (kind of over the budget, but they seem to be best bang for buck; although they are extremely rare in EU) .


    Also, Effusion mentioned the Hartung. How happy are you with it?


    Thanks!
     
    Last edited: May 13, 2017

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