Digital Volume Control & Alternatives

Discussion in 'Digital: DACs, USB converters, decrapifiers' started by direstraitsfan98, Jun 20, 2018.

  1. direstraitsfan98

    direstraitsfan98 D2Girls v2.0

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    I've got a question. Currently I use a pass labs xp-10 line stage as a preamp. If I actually did want to control everything digitally what would be the ideal method? Let's say budgets of $500 and upwards and I'd consider anything if it really did perform better than my xp-10. For the record to my ears the xp-10 is the best sounding preamp I've ever heard, and by that I mean it added less coloration then anything I used prior.

    I may expand upon this post at a later date and if a mod needs to move to a differnt thread go ahead. I tried to find the preamp vs no preamp thread and couldn't.
     
  2. bazelio

    bazelio Friend

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    What do you mean by "control everything" digitally? But if you want to improve upon the xp-10 and have a source or sources that can drive your amp, then get an AVC.

    By the way, Jack Roberts (who is kinda in bed with Pass) felt the HPA-1 was on par with the xp-10 as a line stage with the added benefit of having a headphone amp. But that his silver Slagle is in another league altogether.

    Bottom line, when it becomes difficult to differentiate the sound of your preamp from no preamp at all, then there's no real improvement left to be had. And that's where I've found myself with the Slagle. I'm curious about the silver Slagle, but it's more than I want to spend. I'm content with the copper.
     
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2018
  3. direstraitsfan98

    direstraitsfan98 D2Girls v2.0

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    Apologies to the ambiguous wording on my part. I'm fairly new to this hobby yet, (less than a year) and still learning.

    I was under the assumption that in the whole preamp vs no preamp debate/discussion, that if you actually were to remove the preamp, you would then have to control volume levels digitally either the way msommers and winders do, with their PS Audio dacs or the aforementioned AVC. I'm assuming the AVC is something differnt then what those guys are doing.
     
  4. bazelio

    bazelio Friend

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    The DirectStream digital volume control isn't good. The autoformer is a direct replacement for a poteniometer or stepped resistor type volume control. Stick it in a box with inputs and outputs and you've got a passive preamp.
     
  5. frenchbat

    frenchbat Almost "Made"

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    @direstraitsfan98

    Indeed those two methods are different. The directstream and similar are doing some digital attenuation, while the avc is an analog attenuation as @bazelio said.
     
  6. Senorx12562

    Senorx12562 Case of the mondays

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    You can also control volume digitally with player software, but you will be using up bits that would otherwise be available for playback or any dsp functions. Might also introduce some latency with control functions or some playback artifacts. Whether such volume control is transparent independent of the above is a matter of some dispute.
     
  7. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    Digital volume control is never good because you are decimating the digital data, thus losing bits, raising the noise floor, and possibly increasing distortion.
     
  8. direstraitsfan98

    direstraitsfan98 D2Girls v2.0

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    Yeah I'm actually aware of that, @k4rstar taught me pretty much everything I know about digital. When I play music over foobar2k I have the WASAPI plugin enabled so it's a fixed volume, and to adjust volume I use my pass xp-10. Correct me if I'm wrong but anything with a physical knob to adjust the volume is a preamp, right?

    I'm confused because going by what you guys are saying it seems like you're trying to say that digital volume control ala msommers/winders setup is a bad way to adjust volume. Are you there
    therefore advocating the use for preamps?

    Maybe I'm completely wrong about everything, like maybe there's a way to control volume without a preamp and without digital attenuation but I haven't come across such an implementation in my 10 months of this audio journey yet. But since I am eager to learn I want to try new things.

    Edit. Ah just saw the explanation of what an AVC is. So an AVC doesnt add coloration, then? And am I correct in thinking you would place a device in between your dac and your amp?
     
  9. Senorx12562

    Senorx12562 Case of the mondays

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    And there you go.
     
  10. Senorx12562

    Senorx12562 Case of the mondays

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    Imo, the most transparent way to control volume would be with a passive preamp. Ymmv.
     
  11. frenchbat

    frenchbat Almost "Made"

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    It's one of the lowest impacting volume control known methods (if not the lowest). Preferably, one would spare from using anything between dac and amp, but that's not realistic.
     
  12. direstraitsfan98

    direstraitsfan98 D2Girls v2.0

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    I looked into those but I was overwhelmed with the options, passive or active, passive with or without output transformed, matching output ohms or wether that is just fiction, and tube or solid state. I mean at times it seems like the preamp was actually the most important price of kit in my whole system. Something I was doubtful of, as I also like to think that "no preamp is better than one" in the sense that a preamps job should be to be transparent and only adjust the volume.

    In the end I settled on the xp-10, it seemed like a bit of a no brainer, one came up on the used market at an attractive price, well over 50% msrp, guy was local and it was the most perfect match you could think of, the xp-10 and the xa30.5 were basically made for each other at least on paper. my xp-10 does the job much better than any of my amp/pre combos I've been tried in the last half year.

    Ps. Why does Pass refer to the xp-10 as a "line stage" and not a preamp? I've noticed a lot of esoteric makers of hifi seem to do that. Is it just a fancy way of saying it's a preamp?
     
  13. msommers

    msommers High on Epipens

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    Personally I think the volume control on my DSJr dac is fine for now, it's not like it's horrible. I had a Primaluna Dialogue Premium preamp and while it was an improvement, it wasn't some day and night experience that made me think my setup without a separate preamp was shit.

    I'm also too lazy to have no way of controlling the volume remotely. The remote seems to be viewed as a "tainter" of sound by some and if it is, I just don't give a shit.
     
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2018
  14. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    Line stage = fancy way of saying preamp. Audiophiles like to feel special. I'm a curmudgeon, that's why I sometimes refer to phono cartridges as needles.

    The "no preamp" discussed in some of the recent threads here refers to "passive preamp" or "no active preamp".

    A passive preamp means volume control via autoformers, potentiometers, photoresistors, resistors with no active circuits (transistors, tubes, power, etc.). An active preamp is necessary between some sources and power amplifiers. The reasons and conditions for this are covered in other preamp threads.

    A dirt cheap passive SE preamp would be a Schiit Sys or JDS OL. I think a lot of audiophiles would be surprised if they replaced their expensive preamps with one of these - assuming no impedance mismatches between source and power amp. I'd say that in 80% of instances, an active preamp isn't necessary and hinders transparency, unless one wanted specific colorations from a preamp. Preamps were a way to sell more gear to audiophiles back in the 90s; but then again, preamps back then also included the phonostage function.
     
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2018
  15. Senorx12562

    Senorx12562 Case of the mondays

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    Usually "linestage" just means it has no phono pre.
     
  16. pedalhead

    pedalhead Friend

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    I'm not convinced a blanket "digital attenuation is bad" works in practice. While the mathematics says you're effectively raising the noise floor by digitally attenuating the signal, a scenario where you can eliminate part of the signal chain (a standalone pre-amp) and trade that for a *modest* amount of digital attenuation seems like it could be a decent trade off. Depends enormously on the components I'm sure, and ultimately it comes down to what's audible and what isn't.
     
  17. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    Digital attenuation works if we know and can set the exact the parameters of our system, that is max SPL and typical volume levels. This allows us to limit the level of decimation to as few bits as possible. Home theatre / movies is a good case for using digital attenuation.
     
  18. Senorx12562

    Senorx12562 Case of the mondays

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    I make this trade-off when listening with headphones (no remote) vs speakers. Given my gear and my old ears don't think it matters.
     
  19. direstraitsfan98

    direstraitsfan98 D2Girls v2.0

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    Thank you to all for the insightful comments. I wish I could contribute more but my knowledge is woefully inadequate... perhaps in a few years I'll be as wise as you guys :p
     
  20. Senorx12562

    Senorx12562 Case of the mondays

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    No one has ever called me wise before.
     

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