Fuses Sound Science

Discussion in 'Random Thoughts' started by Thenewerguy009, Nov 18, 2017.

  1. Thenewerguy009

    Thenewerguy009 Friend

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    No one really talked about modding the Yggdrasil. A few hundred in parts could fix some of the gripes people have vs some of the more expensive DACs.

    The easiest & most obvious one is swapping the stock fuse. A few people said it made a slight difference when going with a higher end one.

    Then there is the obvious, but I never seen anyone try it. Swapping out the inlet & connector types. I think stock are just gold plated, copper pins. There are silver with rhodium plating that a lot of people say changes the sound for the better. Only basic soldering skills would be needed for that.
     
  2. Darren G

    Darren G Friend

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    You realize that the electrical engineers are rolling over at this.

    After the miles of wire to get power to your home, the thousands of feet of wire in your walls, and the endless work to build the digital and analog circuits in Yggdrasil, changing the fuse does what??
     
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  3. johnjen

    johnjen Doesn’t want to be here but keeps posting anyways

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    I can heartily confirm that fuses do make a difference in my setup. As do cables. It is my experience that when you reach these levels of performance seemingly small things can have a disproportionately large effect. And the cumulative effects between several of them even more so.
    But then this general rule applies to the entire system, where relieving 'choke points', as I call them, can have very beneficial effects.

    Yeah I've heard these counter arguments for decades now and for me in my system they simply don't hold true.

    But these sorts of tweaks may not work for you, in your system, based upon your setup, your expectations, your ability to discern these more subtle refinements.

    And as I hinted at above, I have found that the cumulative effects of many such refinements, when all operating in concert together, can yield significant improvements.
    IOW it isn't just the fuses, nor just the cables, etc. but the net effect all these sorts of tweaks can make together, when they work in harmony, that can reveal levels of unsuspected performance that are most gratifying.

    But you do have to work to achieve them, as in much experimentation and trial and error learning.
    Such is the nature of our hobby.

    JJ
     
  4. TonyNewman

    TonyNewman Validated by Tyll removing Utopia from WOF

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    There is a highly profitable industry based around the audio cable myth. The fuse fantasy is just another aspect of the mythology, but perhaps a more laughable one. To each their own. It's a faith based position, so trying to have a logical discussion around it is futile, and just ends up in yet another thread derailment. If it makes folks happy and they think it makes a difference, then good for them.
     
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  5. Brad Tombaugh

    Brad Tombaugh Facebook Friend

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    I have to agree with you on things which are not in the signal path, and especially upstream of the power supply. The purpose of the power supply is to filter and regulate the flow of electricity to the internal components. If changing the power cord or fuse before the power supply changes the observable output of the device, then the power supply isn’t doing it’s job properly. This is undoubtedly why some tube amps perform measurably better with a linear power supply then the stock switching power supply, for example.

    Part of the reason that the Yggdrasil has higher performance than the Modi Multibit, Bifrost or Gungnir Multibit is due to the higher performing power supply in the Yggdrasil.

    If the input power had such an audible impact on the audible output, then I would expect more people to be advocating the use of line interactive, pure sine wave uninterruptible power supplies for their audio gear.
     
  6. kevnin

    kevnin #facetweeting - Friend

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    That's a particularly ironic statement in a thread about the differences between DACs. Why are cables a "myth" and a "faith based position" but dacs are not? Why does Gungnir Multibit have more bass than modi but their measured frequency responses are both ruler flat across the audio band? I've never seen a convincing technical answer, but when you listen the difference is there. Same thing with cables.
     
  7. TonyNewman

    TonyNewman Validated by Tyll removing Utopia from WOF

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    Because the DAC actually does something real with the audio signal. Cables do not.

    Please show me an FR plot showing where any audio cable, anywhere, has had a measurable FR impact.

    Alternatively, please point to a credible blind test, carried out by anyone, anywhere, where folks could distinguish between cables to a degree that is statistically significant (i.e. not random chance).

    Until one or the other above, preferably both, happens I will continue to view the cable fantasy as exactly that - a fantasy. YMMV.
     
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  8. Thenewerguy009

    Thenewerguy009 Friend

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    Don't want to make this discussion on cables, but the metal types for inlets & connectors do matter.
    Soldering new ones seems easy enough, though I never heard anyone trying it.
     
  9. murphythecat

    murphythecat GRU-powered uniformed trumpkin

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    show me a blind test.
    my blind test between 6 cables convince me that if there's any differences, they are so minimal as to be irrelevant.

    EDIT: ah shoot, mods please delete any cable comments in this thread. we shouldnt pollute one of the most important DAC thread on the net for religion (cables)
     
  10. Darren G

    Darren G Friend

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    Anyway, I'm happy with the sound of Yggdrasil, and have no plans to pay a lot for cables/fuses, but I have tweaked a bit -

    Experimenting with tubes. I found some Tesla 6922's that sound good in my chain. The tube roll option ended up being even more valuable than I originally thought. I suppose some would also argue that a tube is a tube, but it's at least an active component. Really happy I bought the MJ2. It sounds glorious, lush, powerful, clear. What a pleasant sounding amp all around.

    The Schiit Eitr to break a ground loop.

    A system wide equalizer. The Utopias are bright to me, and needed a bit of cooling off.

    --

    There may be better gear, but it's awesome to hear the hard instruments like cymbals, bells, horns, violins, piano, sound like those instruments. I'll be keeping my Yggdrasil for many years to come.
     
  11. Darren G

    Darren G Friend

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    I was a child when my dad taught me AC -> DC conversion. I am no expert, but it's not mind boggling complex either. Just need a good teacher to explain a sine wave in, subtract half or invert half of the wave so they are both the same polarity, and smooth it out, and how. He gave a few minor lessons on techniques to keep some electrons in reserve for high demand cases.

    The fuse is a strip of metal. Electrons flow, too many over some period of time, and it melts. At least he never taught me that electrons are picky and act irrationally if the metal isn't an expensive metal, or comes in a fancy over priced package.
     
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2017
  12. murray

    murray Friend

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    Real world fuses have resistance which is not constant - it is affected by current / heat. This can modulate the supply voltages. An ideal fuse would have zero resistance at all currents and still blow at the precise overload point. However, in practice the metal of the wire has to heat up to reach the point where it melts.
     
  13. Darren G

    Darren G Friend

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    Well we trusted Schiit to have the brains to figure out the power supplies, digital to analog sections, and to implement a clean analog output.

    So is this even about questioning their judgement of a valid fuse, or alternative narrative... did someone see a part that is user replaceable, and realized they could make a few bucks replacing it with an 'audiophile' part (aka expensive and does nothing?)
     
  14. Darren G

    Darren G Friend

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    Just to be clear... I am not claiming to be an EE. I'm just looking at it from the point of view of someone who had the good fortune to build Dynaco kits as someone quite young, and a father who was patient, older, and wiser. He encouraged me to ask questions, and so when I was looking a box of parts, what does this do? he took the time to explain this is a transformer, this is what it does; talk me through the schematics; explain this is a rectifier, here is what it does; this is a transistor, here is what it does. He'd take the time to draw pictures, explain, and answer questions. Much of what he explained eluded me (cause hey, it's a complex topic, but he reduced the complexity to the essential), but the key thing is he also removed the complete mystery. It was no longer just a bunch of mysterious parts. Each part had a purpose, and the purpose was explainable.

    My dad loves music, but he'd also call BS. There are probably what, 0, musicians fretting over the fuses used in the gear during a live performance. It's also why I've become a fan of Schiit gear. They are a company that just makes good gear, avoids the mystical claims, and even are good about calling out BS as laughable (take a look at the manuals) 'Can I use an audiophile grade power cable? Yes you can, but what about the thousands of feet of crap wires in your walls?' Good stuff.

    Jason and Mike are clearly both brilliant EEs, and their products prove it, over and over. I am just going to go with they know what they are doing, and the fuse is fine. It does exactly what it needs to do, no more, no less (actually it's probably more fuse then is needed if anything), but if anyone is hearing a difference, I am going to go with it is placebo effect. It's there for catastrophic reasons, a short, a situation in which the draw is out of control, but there is nothing wrong with it, nor is it limiting a Yggdrasil that is operating as it should.
     
  15. TonyNewman

    TonyNewman Validated by Tyll removing Utopia from WOF

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    There is a case for ceramic fuses, and it has nothing to do with sonics. When a glass fuse blows the casing can shatter, leaving a nasty mess to clean up. The ceramic fuses tend not to do this (at least in my limited experience).

    Folks that claim to hear differences in fuses and cables etc need to do some blind testing. They will quickly find that they will be doing well to tell amps and DACs apart (gear that actually impacts the audio signal). I have never seen, nor heard of, a credible blind test anywhere, by anyone, where humans could differentiate cables, despite there being very large cash incentives for anyone that could do it (Randy put up 1 million some years ago - never claimed). It has never happened and it never will.
     
  16. Collusion

    Collusion Friend

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    To my knowledge, there hasn't been any credible ABX blind tests on dacs either, where people have successfully differentiated two devices from each other.
     
  17. TonyNewman

    TonyNewman Validated by Tyll removing Utopia from WOF

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    When folks started spraying cable/fuse propaganda in it.
     
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  18. murphythecat

    murphythecat GRU-powered uniformed trumpkin

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    id be very happy if I couldnt hear difference in DAC. sadly, I really do.

    are you sure there have not been ABX blind test between dacs?
     
  19. Galm

    Galm Still looking for Little Red Riding Hood

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    It's not really too much... Blind testing is one of the only concrete ways to show your opinion is in line with how it actually sounds in certain aspects.

    On Head-Fi I can easily ask a question and say is ... too bright or too warm. Then get both answers. That's worthless.

    I'm not saying you have to have it, but I never see a reason to be against conducting a proper one (i.e. not set up to prove one way or another).
     
  20. Scott Kramer

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    Last edited: Nov 20, 2017

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