General Speaker Advice and Recommendations

Discussion in 'Speakers' started by shotgunshane, Mar 7, 2017.

  1. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    I share with @Hrodulf a very similar opinion on all points above.

    I've heard about "speed" in transducers, and as time has gone by I find the term to be utter bullshit more every day. How "fast" things settle has everything to do with frequency band, and sub-woofers operate in the low frequency bands. They cannot be "fast". As far as sealed vs. ported, time alignment can be perhaps more problematic for audible frequency ranges, and of those, all things north of 80 Hz due to our ability to discern directivity at those ranges. A sub should send air out of the port at low frequencies, and in many cases, w/o much HD actually. In general, I wouldn't worry too much about the port, and in fact I prefer a port for anything south of say 50 or 40 Hz on a sub.

    Regarding metal dome tweeters and their fatiguing reputation. I disregard it. Many metal tweeters exhibit some peaking at ultrasonic frequencies and are well behaved bellow 20 kHz. There should not be any fatigue because of this. In general I stay away from ribbons because I don't like their polar response and some have higher HD than I like. Some just have a fucked up frequency response. Personally, I do tend to gravitate towards silk dome tweeters, but I would not shy off from a good metal tweeter.

    One thing to look at is the size of the driver(s), the xmax of the woofers (specially low frequency ones), and the associated HD of all drivers. Look closely at what frequencies are things getting crossed. Pay attention at the application. It makes little sense to have 4 way towers for your computer monitors. Or a 2" full range driver for your listening rich-man hall sitting 10 meters from the speakers.
     
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2018
  2. iFi audio

    iFi audio MOT iFi Audio

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    It depends on a full-range driver:D

    Jokes aside, we resonate with many things you wrote.
     
  3. Priidik

    Priidik MOT: Estelon

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    Indeed, much of the audio vocab is technically speaking nonsense. It's got little to nothing to do with dx/dt.
    It is what it is. Most agree that low Qts high mech Q ,light coned large bass drivers sound 'fast', but what they really mean is perhaps ''explosive'', not any less nonsense word .
    I think the characteristic goodness has mostly to do with low 2. harmonic and good dynamic performance, esp in high bass.
    Anyways, it seems I'm on a different page here. I speak of performance up to 150..300 Hz (high bass).
     
  4. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    I can not tell how a speaker will sound or how explosive it would be by looking at the Qts of the drivers alone.
     
  5. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    I mean, back in the past I might have had the idea of correlating Qts with explosive, driver control or whatever. Until I started playing around designing some speakers, and that idea banished.
     
  6. rlow

    rlow A happy woofer

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    The Special Fortys are excellent, but the rear port is a real challenge with them. They need a lot of space to breathe, more than other ported bookshelfs I've owned, so I didn't bother mentioning them. Bass bloat is a real problem without pulling them far into the room. They do come with port bungs, but this limits the low end response obviously, and I find them a bit constrained sounding with them in.

    Compared to the ATCs they are more forgiving up top, smoother and clearer in the mids, warmer overall with a much bigger soundstage. They don't sound as 'neutral' as the ATCs - they're voiced a bit more for euphony, but not overly so. Very easy to listen to for long periods with low fatigue. The ATCs soundstage is just 'ok' but they sound far more dynamic with more punch and sparkle on the top end, and are insanely clean sounding at high volumes with zero compression. But they are less forgiving. The ATCs sound more like live music, and the S40s are clearly voiced to sound more pleasurable to the ear, with almost anything playing, but still have excellent resolution.
     
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2018
  7. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    With more information: Qts, VAS, box size, port dimensions, and Qms, Qes, Le, maybe.

    Low inductance is always desirable but sometimes not possible for the application. I know I tend to like drivers with less damping, so if it came down to choice of a few, I'd might take Qms into consideration.

    I like dynamic lively stuff. So I look at Le, Qms, VAS (to make sure I'm not undersizing a box), and low xmax.

    Haha low xmax always wins. You'd get why if you've ever seen BL curves on a Klippel when the cone even moves a mm past the rest / center point, even for those monster high xmax mega magnet speakers.
     
  8. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    There are trade-offs depending on constraints and goals.

    As the cone moves out a bit, distortion might set in for several reasons. A larger speaker may have less distortion and higher output with less xmax. But it may develop a narrow lobe at higher frequencies and even in the mid-range. What works best probably depends on the application. Nothing is ever perfect.

    In that sense, I feel one has to compare systems that are designed for similar applications. It makes little sense to me to compare a near-field monitor against a full size PA speaker with horns and 15" mid-bass drivers. The environments they are designed for are not the same.

    And in similar applications, we have preferences.
     
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2018
  9. westermac

    westermac Friend

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    I have dual 3-way 12" JBL's set up at my desk in midfield position. Am I crazy? Maybe. Yes.
     
  10. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    Shit man. You will likely get little distortion and lots of output. But how far are you sitting from those monsters? Coherence between the drivers may suffer if you are too close.

    EDIT: This weekend I attended a wedding. They had a single 2 way horn/12" deal there in a relatively small room. It was a PA, and f**k it was loud. I could not hear that shit on-axis w/o pain. Off-axis I was a lot more comfy. But I would not call that awesome. It made noise. Folks were drunk. Nobody cared. That thing might have been OK on axis if they cranked down like 30+ dB down. But again, off-axis would likely not be awesome.
     
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2018
  11. westermac

    westermac Friend

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    Overkill for sure, great bass though! I haven't measured but they're 5-6ft away. Imaging starts to break apart quickly as you get closer but at their present distance I'm pretty impressed with how coherent they are, especially the L112's considering their HF/mid aren't vertically alligned (the 4412A's are, though).
     
  12. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    2 meters may not be that bad for those. I also don't care that much about vertical alignment. I mean, I do, but not that much. In the extreme it can cause some issues, like with the MTM center channels and stuff.

    The main concern I would have with a system like yours, given your listening range, is of the "where the hell I put them" type.
     
  13. westermac

    westermac Friend

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    It's definitely been a challenge. I'm fortunate to have my own office at work to arrange as I please (at the expense of my coworkers' perception of my sanity). One pair is on lower stands at ear level and the other immediately above on telescoping stands angled downward (I'll try to add a picture to the speaker setup thread tomorrow).

    Lots of trial and error with placement and measurements, particularly with such large woofers in a smallish room. Plenty of treatment still needed.

    EDIT: Picture added
     
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2018
  14. msommers

    msommers High on Epipens

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    A picture of this setup is now a requirement
     
  15. spwath

    spwath Hijinks master cum laudle

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    I mean, I sit about 2 meters away from my 15" woofer/altec 811b Horn system.
    Worked pretty nice for watching RoboCop today.
     
  16. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    Last edited: Oct 2, 2018
  17. Armaegis

    Armaegis Friend

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    A small PA top should be mounted up on stands well above ear level to avoid precisely that. Bounce it off the back/side walls so everyone can hear. I've DJ'd a wedding with a pair of 2way horn/10" speakers (plus a single sub) that worked well, and it was a moderately large room; wide and shallow which is a weird space to bring sound for.

    In small PA setups, those Bose L1 or similar stacks are actually decent choices.
     
  18. Hrodulf

    Hrodulf Prohibited from acting as an MOT until year 2050

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    I also have a soft spot for soft domes, SB dimple domes especially. As for non-domey tweeter tech, RAAL, Beyma and Mundorf have nice reputation, but none of these are as magic as claimed by the sales peeps. RAAL and Mundorf seem cutting edge for what they do, but they hate going low and loud. Dedicated mid drivers that like playing up to 4k aren't exactly abundant and most aren’t very efficient and can’t play loud. Beyma tweets might not be the bees knees up high, but they sure like going loud, low and clean. As @ultrabike mentioned, polar response vertically can be an issue due to radiator dimensions, but it also tends to avoid bouncy surfaces.

    As for metal and other hard dome breakup, it is absolutely necessary that it happens in ultrasound. The SE.AS 1” domes in my 8050A Gennies break up in the lower twenties and I can actually measure the slight rise circa 19k. I can’t really hear that being a problem, but potentially ultrasonic stuff can cause IMD effects in the audible range.
     
  19. spwath

    spwath Hijinks master cum laudle

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    Hey, im not a loaner, I have friends.
    Although they don't care as much about sound, so I can just sit in the sweet spot and give them the other places. Plus the horns should help disperse the sound a bit better, creating less of a sweet spot.
     
  20. mitochondrium

    mitochondrium Friend

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    If you were a loaner it would need a sign of @Warrior even more urgently, hope he is well and all the little lo(a)ners, too.
    Don't be ashamed of a small sweet spot. I once bought a coupe and told a friend that I prefered a sedan because it had more room for the back benchers, he asked me "are you ever going to sit on the back bench of your own car?"
     

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